Poll - Sport Fishing and Salmon Stocks

I really doubt they're looking at the site.... might be worthwhile to have the ideas written up in Sportfishing BC or something like that though. I'm sure a few of the ideas would really stir up some emotion out there... which is overdue in my opinion.
 
As FM says, "No checks for 7 years." No checks seems to be the standard now with the lack of federal funding and the crazy amount of boats on the water. It drives me crazy to think we may loose this fishery and become just like the East Coast sooner than we would dare to think. Look at Georgia Strait!Juan de Fuca is not far off. It's time this goverment has there eyes opened a bit wider, think of the annual revenue generated by sporties alone. I know what i spend each year in just fuel and taxes, not to metion gear.
So now it has got to the point where we need to feel guilty for bonking a decent fish that we spent thousands of dollars to do.
It's not all about the meat to me, however a diffrent storey for the greedy client salavating as you bonk Spring after spring for a one way trip to freezer burnville.
My thoughts are the fishery is inevitably doomed, unless it is made public on a global wide basis that it is in serious trouble, if the fisheries demise is based on meeting an annual federal Budget. It's a big Ocean and managment area , so everyone has to do there part.
 
It is encouraging to see that we all seem to be in agreement that retaining the status quo will only result in less and less salmon.

I would be interested to see any other forums where First Nations or Commercial interests voice the same concerns. Or, is it possible that these concerns are only publicly aired in the Sport Fishing community?

These changes to the Sport Regs seem to me to be the ones that could be adopted most easily.

1) A reduction in limits daily, possesion and yearly) for Chinook, Coho and possibly Sockeye

2) Minimum Size Limits increased for Chinook (70cm), Chum, Coho and Sockeye (45cm?)

3) Close winter fishery.

4) Reduce number of rods allowed per angler to 1.

(I threw in the last one.... I think that would also have the same effect as reducing the limits.)

As for closing the rivers, it seems like this would cause a big fracture in the sport salmon fishing between the salt and fresh user groups. Each river should be examined and closures should be determined for each individually.

I do believe that the saltchuck in front of every salmon river and stream should be closed. The exact size of the closed area would have to be determined on an individual estuary basis.

Obviously, an increase in enforcement is required for these changes to really make a difference.
 
quote:Originally posted by Pablo2079

It is encouraging to see that we all seem to be in agreement that retaining the status quo will only result in less and less salmon.

I would be interested to see any other forums where First Nations or Commercial interests voice the same concerns. Or, is it possible that these concerns are only publicly aired in the Sport Fishing community?

These changes to the Sport Regs seem to me to be the ones that could be adopted most easily.

1) A reduction in limits daily, possesion and yearly) for Chinook, Coho and possibly Sockeye

2) Minimum Size Limits increased for Chinook (70cm), Chum, Coho and Sockeye (45cm?)

3) Close winter fishery.

4) Reduce number of rods allowed per angler to 1.

(I threw in the last one.... I think that would also have the same effect as reducing the limits.)

As for closing the rivers, it seems like this would cause a big fracture in the sport salmon fishing between the salt and fresh user groups. Each river should be examined and closures should be determined for each individually.

I do believe that the saltchuck in front of every salmon river and stream should be closed. The exact size of the closed area would have to be determined on an individual estuary basis.

Obviously, an increase in enforcement is required for these changes to really make a difference.

Well...I agree wholeheartedly.

I have forwarded this thread to:

Contact the MINISTER of Fisheries and Oceans Canada:

Honourable Loyola Hearn
House of Commons
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Parliament Buildings, Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Canada

E-Mail: Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca


If you guys have a concern, take the time to write the minister directly. Maybe it's the only way people are going to get the message. I think we know a lot more than the lodge owners and many of the operators out there who would HATE to see some of these changes as it would affect their pocketbook in some small way.
 
Hell of a thread to introduce myself through...

I do not accept the argument that river fish have earned some right to be left alone because they survived their time at sea. By anthropomorphising salmon, we tend to obscure or ignore real biological facts. Many salmon die after being properly and gently released because of a build-up of lactic acid in their flesh. Lactic acid is the substance that makes your legs burn when you run. But whereas human tissue begins its recovery as soon as we stop running, the acid continues to build up in salmon for hours after release. Hence, apparently healthy fish frequently die once turned loose. This suggests that a ban on catch and release is in order -- catch your limit, kill your limit, get off the water.

But the matter is a little more complicated. Once salmon hit the fresh, their physiology changes, and they no longer release very much lactic acid. In short, properly released river fish will almost always survive. So a blanket closure on all stream fishing seems unjustifyable if the argument is based on odds of survival or anthropomorphising.

Regarding lodges and guides, I suggest that they be treated like a commercial harvest because they are commercial opperations motivated by $ rather than sport, just like commercial fishermen. These opperations should share a quota, possibly even share a quota with conventional commercial opperators. And again, no C&R.

As for the FN harvest, a bit of research into the history of how the modern system has evolved has persuaded me that Natives do have a unique right to salmon. However they also have a moral obligation to promote conservation and sustainable harvests. Simply sending them to Safeway to pick up a fillet for dinner will only contribute to the so-called "free ride" problem. This seems to result from a destruction of culture rather than its preservation. And of course FN have every right to fish with modern technology; it is an inate human characheristic to adapt -- that is all that has happened here.

I like many of the other suggestions that I've read here, and I am not opposed to very tough regulations if they are necessary. Enough for now.

- S2.
 
quote:Originally posted by Steelhead S2

Hell of a thread to introduce myself through...

I do not accept the argument that river fish have earned some right to be left alone because they survived their time at sea. By anthropomorphising salmon, we tend to obscure or ignore real biological facts. Many salmon die after being properly and gently released because of a build-up of lactic acid in their flesh. Lactic acid is the substance that makes your legs burn when you run. But whereas human tissue begins its recovery as soon as we stop running, the acid continues to build up in salmon for hours after release. Hence, apparently healthy fish frequently die once turned loose. This suggests that a ban on catch and release is in order -- catch your limit, kill your limit, get off the water.

But the matter is a little more complicated. Once salmon hit the fresh, their physiology changes, and they no longer release very much lactic acid. In short, properly released river fish will almost always survive. So a blanket closure on all stream fishing seems unjustifyable if the argument is based on odds of survival or anthropomorphising.

Regarding lodges and guides, I suggest that they be treated like a commercial harvest because they are commercial opperations motivated by $ rather than sport, just like commercial fishermen. These opperations should share a quota, possibly even share a quota with conventional commercial opperators. And again, no C&R.

As for the FN harvest, a bit of research into the history of how the modern system has evolved has persuaded me that Natives do have a unique right to salmon. However they also have a moral obligation to promote conservation and sustainable harvests. Simply sending them to Safeway to pick up a fillet for dinner will only contribute to the so-called "free ride" problem. This seems to result from a destruction of culture rather than its preservation. And of course FN have every right to fish with modern technology; it is an inate human characheristic to adapt -- that is all that has happened here.

I like many of the other suggestions that I've read here, and I am not opposed to very tough regulations if they are necessary. Enough for now.

- S2.

First off, I'd like to welcome you to the forum.

Second, you raise some valid points.

However, there's a few people that would love to take issue with your post, and fisheries biologists would say that you are presenting an extreme case with slime/scale loss....which is not the rule out there.

As for sportfishing lodges and your discourse with those, basically every lodge would CEASE to exist if they went with your idea about catch/release, and Chinook and Coho revival/survival rates are very very good as a matter of fact when handled properly, and based on the studies and research I have seen. participated in, proper handling does little long term damage to the fish.

As for your comment about River fishers...there's a popular website out there full of avid River fishers who say they do no harm to the fish, when in fact there are 10000 fishers on the river system within a 40 km section of the Fraser on a given day in September or October. Immaculate anglers? Hardly! Ever been to the Stave? The Cowichan? The bars on the Fraser? Ever seen the carnage during Sockeye season? How about the pictures of River fishers slamming Coho (wild and hatchery) and then holding hooked nose red tomatoes out of the water to snap "glory pictures"? Now I'm not trying to slam river fishers..but it's a reality out there, and the river fishers out there love to slam the saltwater guys. Well..in my time fishing in the chuck, I've never seen anglers "break off fish", SNAG fish via "flossing" etc. River fishers OWN and MUST SHARE the responsibility for conservation and enhancement of the resource, and there must be CUTBACKS for everyone.

There's bad apples in both groups of fishers..salt and fresh, and the river fishers generally have a much easier time of finding their quarry, and relatively speaking..the limits are often much more generous for FAR less expense to catch them.

Anyways..those aren't necessarily my views, but that is how a few people may feel and respond.
 
quote:As for sportfishing lodges and your discourse with those, basically every lodge would CEASE to exist if they went with your idea about catch/release, and Chinook and Coho revival/survival rates are very very good as a matter of fact when handled properly, and based on the studies and research I have seen. participated in, proper handling does little long term damage to the fish.


Got any links to these studies, because the last study I read put the mortality rate for released chinook salmon at 20-30% and 12% for Coho.

As Steelhead S2 said its not the slime and scale loss that is the big killer, it is the build up of lactic acid and cortisol that can take days or weeks to do its full damage.
 
quote:Originally posted by Poppa Swiss

quote:As for sportfishing lodges and your discourse with those, basically every lodge would CEASE to exist if they went with your idea about catch/release, and Chinook and Coho revival/survival rates are very very good as a matter of fact when handled properly, and based on the studies and research I have seen. participated in, proper handling does little long term damage to the fish.


Got any links to these studies, because the last study I read put the mortality rate for released chinook salmon at 20-30% and 12% for Coho.

As Steelhead S2 said its not the slime and scale loss that is the big killer, it is the build up of lactic acid and cortisol that can take days or weeks to do its full damage.

I've been looking for the published studies however I'm having a hard time finding them.

Here's one brief overview (although being published on a lodge page may question it's credibility, but speaking with some of the guys and having participated...I know it to be true. As far as I know, that data is based on HARD carcass recovery--and there is some margin for error as they didn't find some of the carcasses.

As for smaller fish, there are studies out there which are very favorable as well..however the studies aren't as accurate as the fish are prone to predation!

http://www.langara.com/site/?ref=details&nid=424

and another

http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/thornton/catchrelease.phtml

and this one about mortality rates for first year chinook in the ocean....OUCH!

http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8675(1993)013%3C0524%3AMOCACS%3E2.3.CO%3B2
 
Yeah, it's pretty bad. It's hard to reason with people that choose not to listen.
 
Wow C.S. how do you really feel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL


Wolf
 
quote:Originally posted by C.S.

Shut down winter chinook fishing???
F*#K THAT S#*T!

Sport catch makes a cee hair of a dent in feeder springs,no need for even considering a shut down.There not blue backs for christ sakes!

True that.

However mortality is 30% on feeder springs in their first year in the ocean according the the last study. Apparently the hook wound is what gets 'em. So, if you hook 100 small grilse, 30 of them will eventually die as a result of the hook wound. That's why they moved to barbless.

Survival is much better if the fish is larger.

I don't think they'll shut down the winter fishery...however, there will be regulation changes I sure in the next few years I am sure.
 
Well Mr. Magician, I'm not sure how to take the "ouch" from your previous post, but after reading your links and some other info., it seems as though my position on C&R mortality was based on outdated studies. I based my arguments on what I learned from Fisherman's Fall. Although other studies suggest a lowere survival rate than that promoted by Langara, C&R may not be as bad as I thought. My only criticism of all the recent studies and analysis I have found is that salmon were only studied for 24 hours. These short term studies tell us alot about mortality as it relates to handling and hook wounds, but has little to say about longer term survival. The best I found was a government study that noted more research was needed in this area. So I am, I suppose, an agnostic on the effectiveness of C&R. But I am also largely a C&R fisher.

Fish stocks are clearly in trouble, and every responsible angler, whether we fish in fresh or saltwater has to start taking conservation seriously. Likewise, irresponsible anglers, no matter where they fish, must be educated or taken off the water. To that end, perhaps a harshening of penalties for illegal fishing practices is in order?

- S2.

P.S. I fish commercially as well as for sport, I fish in both fresh and salt water for sport, and I have done some guiding in both fresh and saltwater. Please don't think I'm just some ignorant, navel-gazing flosser with 3oz lead and a 2/0 hook.
 
quote:Originally posted by Steelhead S2

Well Mr. Magician, I'm not sure how to take the "ouch" from your previous post, but after reading your links and some other info., it seems as though my position on C&R mortality was based on outdated studies. I based my arguments on what I learned from Fisherman's Fall. Although other studies suggest a lowere survival rate than that promoted by Langara, C&R may not be as bad as I thought. My only criticism of all the recent studies and analysis I have found is that salmon were only studied for 24 hours. These short term studies tell us alot about mortality as it relates to handling and hook wounds, but has little to say about longer term survival. The best I found was a government study that noted more research was needed in this area. So I am, I suppose, an agnostic on the effectiveness of C&R. But I am also largely a C&R fisher.

Fish stocks are clearly in trouble, and every responsible angler, whether we fish in fresh or saltwater has to start taking conservation seriously. Likewise, irresponsible anglers, no matter where they fish, must be educated or taken off the water. To that end, perhaps a harshening of penalties for illegal fishing practices is in order?

- S2.

P.S. I fish commercially as well as for sport, I fish in both fresh and salt water for sport, and I have done some guiding in both fresh and saltwater. Please don't think I'm just some ignorant, navel-gazing flosser with 3oz lead and a 2/0 hook.

I participated in some of those studies and took a couple of fisheries seminars at UBC, and those seemed to suggest the BIGGEST problem an immature fish faces next to natural predation is a hook wound, even if the handling was immaculate.

Handling of salmon in North Coast Lodges is minimal UNLESS there is a BIG fish being measured...and even then the handling is as best as can be. A quick tug of the line and a swift jerk with the gaff and the hooks pop right out with the majority of fish.

The studies I have read, particularly on hook mortality on immature fish, show the salmon suffer more from a hook wound over time than some slime removal--and that's from talking with DFO biologists.

Ultimately though, this thread is about advocating ALL the solutions proposed earlier for the purposes of conservation and sustainability.

As an aside...I remember 1 year I was up at Langara fishing, and there was a US troll fleet opening. As a result, the DFO decided they'd open up an opening too---in response to the Alaskan opening from what I understand..much of the commercial fishing was offshore Langara like 10 to 25 miles out. For the next 5 days we were hooking fish that had RIPPED jaws etc.. I still have 4 or 5 spoons taken from the jaws of springs that week... and many floating tomic plugs that I collected from that one week alone. It was a massacre for the commercial guys I'm sure.

Ultimately though, the recognition that hook injuries are critical is KEY.


I think we need to focus efforts around conservation and sustainability other than "handling" issues, and that starts with the reduction of fishing opportunities for all parties, the closure of areas, and regulation changes with gear restrictions which REDUCE handling issues.

Then you'll see some fisheries rebounding.
 
Hey C.S. -

I agree with you that out of the 3 main groups (F.N., Commercial, Sport) we take the fewest fish. However, I think it would be in the best interest of the fishery as a whole if each group could identify where they have the highest negative impact and do something to mitigate it. We have to start somewhere.

Maybe a complete shutdown for the winter isn't the correct course of action, maybe a larger single hook should be the new regulation or no bait... possibly rolling shutdowns to protect the largest concentrations of undersize fish. If we can stop the undersized fish from being hooked, that would be the key.

If we don't do something now, soon, different, outside of our comfort zone.... there won't be anything to discuss tomorrow. Not sure if that's REALLY the case, but it sure feels like it.

I've personally watched the fishing on the Sunshine Coast go down the tubes from the 70's to the present. I would hate for Juan de Fuca, the west side or the folks up North to go through the same thing we have down here on the inside. At least I can still catch some decent Dungeness crab, but salmon has almost become a myth.
 
I'd pick F.

Based on escapements number from index rivers with huge time series of data, Chinook aren't the problem. Chinook are hitting their spawning beds in numbers at or above the 15 year average in most areas of BC, even the South Coast.

Sockeye returned to the Fraser in near record numbers this year, and next year there is a 20 million fish pink salmon run predicted for the Fraser.

For "sport fish" IMHO Coho are the problem, not Chinook.

If recent ocean survival trends on Coho continue for another year, we won't have a choice in the matter. It'll be non-retention on Coho fur sure until something changes.

With all due respect, I tink you're barking up the wrong tree.

Gooey.
 
I fish an average of 50 days a season in Barkley Sound. I keep a record of every fish that comes on board and my records only get better each year. I did notice the average size of chinook was smaller in 2006. I think more focus should be put into habitat restoration. I feel the conservation practices we have in place are good enough. You can create as many rules as you want, it doesnt meen people will actully abid. As a guide and being on the water as much as I am, I witness a lot of people not keepimg to the rules. I find that sad, but we all know this is true. Nobody has commented on the slot limits that are in place now!!!.
 
quote:Originally posted by nine eyes deep

I fish an average of 50 days a season in Barkley Sound. I keep a record of every fish that comes on board and my records only get better each year. I did notice the average size of chinook was smaller in 2006. I think more focus should be put into habitat restoration. I feel the conservation practices we have in place are good enough. You can create as many rules as you want, it doesnt meen people will actully abid. As a guide and being on the water as much as I am, I witness a lot of people not keepimg to the rules. I find that sad, but we all know this is true. Nobody has commented on the slot limits that are in place now!!!.

That 45cm limit is a JOKE. Was pretty funny seeing all kinds of them on the cleaning tables at a couple of different places.

Perhaps you're fishing better than you were if your catch records are getting better? The Charlottes had a sub par year relative to recent history, and the Georgia Strait was a joke---Coho were NON EXISTENT, the Spring fishery was scratchy at best (that's par for the course), and SOCKEYE basically never showed in the numbers they were supposed to. The Vedder and Fraser Chinook were also down according to DFO, and I fished enough to observe it myself, as well as keeping very well informed of the other boats performance out there. Creel Surveyors I ran into were saying it was BLEAK. Other guides had some big gripes about the state of affairs. Rivers Inlet "sucked" according to a lodge owner I talk with every now and then.
 
quote:Originally posted by Gooey Bob

I'd pick F.

Based on escapements number from index rivers with huge time series of data, Chinook aren't the problem. Chinook are hitting their spawning beds in numbers at or above the 15 year average in most areas of BC, even the South Coast.

Sockeye returned to the Fraser in near record numbers this year, and next year there is a 20 million fish pink salmon run predicted for the Fraser.

For "sport fish" IMHO Coho are the problem, not Chinook.

If recent ocean survival trends on Coho continue for another year, we won't have a choice in the matter. It'll be non-retention on Coho fur sure until something changes.

With all due respect, I tink you're barking up the wrong tree.

Gooey.

Where did you get that data on Chinook? That wasn't the experience of most guides on the coast. Fraser River test fisheries suggested returns were lower.

Sockeye fishing was NOT a record year, everything was so late it was ridiculous, and the mortality was massive. The numbers were downgraded a few times.

There's more than a few saltwater guys on there that would be to differ, and there are some commercial troller salts on here that say "fishing sucked this year". They had to CANCEL the herring fishery for the CKNW herring sale...they couldn't catch any!

That says we're in trouble.

Barking up the wrong tree eh? Hmm..that would explain why the Georgia Strait is a dead zone for Coho for the last 13 years and resident Chinook are down, the average size is down, and the west coast had a tough year of it?

Can you post links to your data?
 
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