Halibut! What do you want?

[IronNoggin]

Last I looked it is close to $25/lb for commercial fish in the store and over $50/lb in some restaurants.

And that therein is the thrust of the problem. By turning a Common Property Resource into a Tradeable Commodity, DFO directly set the stage for ever increasing pricing. Why are the prices in the stores and restaurants so excessive? Simple. Those that hold the quota can charge what ever the hell they want for it, and they drive that pricing to the absolute maximum the market can possibly bear!

Were the quota held by Absentee Fish Brokers to be removed to a collective pool that Honest Working Fishermen could access (for a reasonable fee rather than close to their first-born) there would be many many positive spin-offs. The Working Fishermen (and their crews) would realize realistic compensation for their efforts, the price to the purchasing public could be lowered to a reasonable level, and there would be sufficient quota freed to do away with all this controversy surrounding the Recreational Sector's access.

This is EXACTLY the tack DFO has taken on our East Coast. Use It Or Lose It VERY much applies.
Seems out here they're still stuck in the Dark Ages...

Nog

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Interesting to me that many Guides/Outfitters in their various posts continue to minimize the risk of making the 85/15 work this year and thus being saddled with it forever after, yet, at the same time, state continually that they're fearful of any precedent being set that would split the rec group into a pure rec and a charter/outfitter group (like the Alaska model). In my opinion, you can't play on both sides of that fence - there's either implicit danger of our actions setting a precedent or there's not, it can't apply to one activity but not the other.

If G/O's truly thought the precedent risk was low (compared to the sacrifice of a 6-week period for a single year) then why wouldn't they be suggesting a solution that only involves quota for guide/outfitter groups. I've heard the 70+% number bantered around here as an estimate of the take facilitated by G/O's so it'd have the bulk of the influence on the harvest and thus a workable solution would be easy. If a "just for this year" solution has a low risk of setting a precedent, as is being purported by many on here, why hasn't this been proposed?

Of course this is a rhetorical question because I think most of us know the answer - it hasn't and won't be proposed because of the fear of setting the precedent of a split rec sector, a risk I fully agree exists and should preferably be avoided. To me, it's this contradiction that has so many folks on here truly pissed off - if we're one group we have to be honest with each other and assess all risks, trade-offs and potential precedents equally, not in a manner that clearly benefits only a sub-set of the larger group.

 

[Islandgirl]

Cool. Well good luck with everything I will be at my local sfab meeting flipping out about how ******** this is and how we have been "had" and working towards "real" solutions that have EVERYONES best interest in mind.
And i challenge any other rec guy to do the same. Enough of this towing the line ********. Get out there and BE HEARD.

What a crock of ****.


Lorne

And if it isnt obvious why i am so livid about this. The current allocation is 85/15. Out of that 15 roughly 70% is caught by guides and lodges. leaving 300,000 anglers with 4.5% of the total allocation. Which is obviously getting the shaft, but not my reason for raging.

My reason for raging is Now you are going to tell me that in that small percentage you are purposing that we go to a slot and a 1 to 1 later so you can (guides and lodges) further extend into OUR 4.5%. Open your eyes boys.......

For fack sakes some one step up and shut me up and tell me how we arent getting screwed here!.

We are all waiting@!

Agreed


We were 2/3
Then 2/2
Then 1/2

Now some guides propose 1/1 ?
Self serving...I think?

 

[Islandgirl]

quick question here: what about the rec fishers that cant make it out with THEIR OWN BOAT, until mid to late august?....you know the ones that maybe cant book off for their holiday till that time?...guess they are just shyte out of luck eh?....selfish?...hmmmm...not trying to start a shyte storm here, just wondering what ppl think of that, or has anyone but me even thought of those folks that don't or can't come till then?....just curious cause the word selfish has been thrown around quite a bit lately....holmes*

Holmes..
If the season was until Aug 01 or Sept 01..there will always be those that cannot make those dates.
Another month of opening will not make sure everyone can participate.
I used to work in a job where I could not get out fishing until sept 17 at the earliest. So where do you draw the line?

I think as long as people are aware of the closure date they will in most part work within it.
A definate date is important!

 

[Fish-Hunter]

quick question here: what about the rec fishers that cant make it out with THEIR OWN BOAT, until mid to late august?....you know the ones that maybe cant book off for their holiday till that time?...guess they are just shyte out of luck eh?....selfish?...hmmmm...not trying to start a shyte storm here, just wondering what ppl think of that, or has anyone but me even thought of those folks that don't or can't come till then?....just curious cause the word selfish has been thrown around quite a bit lately....holmes*

Holmes, the season should be Groundhog Day to Halloween for me! (the rest of the season is pretty crappy for the most part for weather conditions and daylight hours).

The limits should be 2/2 with a seasonal bag limit (all recorded on license tags).

The more that I think about this whole debacle, for me it keps coming back to addressing the issue of the lack of real tangible data in regards to our actual catch for any given season.

We have GOT to get a system put into place that gives us real numbers so that we can show how much TAC we really need, in order to fish a full season for the recreational sector with realistic daily and seasonal limits. Without real data we are just treading water with one arm.
FH

 

[Fish-Hunter]

hey, everyone knows im on board with that, couldnt agree more....but what about this season?....and i hear ya Islegirl, yer rite, where exactly do we draw the line?...dunno...holmes*

Yep, this season is fawked already, we can all see the writing on the wall for this season, and with the current trend, we can see what is coming for next year too.

The tire on the truck is flat and we haven't even left the driveway,,, putting bubblegum on it is not going to "FIX" it. We NEED to change the tire now not later. This is where we really need to be making reccomendations and demands of DFO. We need to put their feet to the fire to implement a system that gives the rec sector real accountability so that good management decisions can be made. We have to stop putting band-aids on everything to get short term results and instant gratification. We need to invest into a solid foundation for our rec fishery, and yes that will take a lot of work and sacrifice for the short to medium term, but for our long term future it is imperative that we get it straightened out ASAP!

 

[casper5280]

Holmes, the season should be Groundhog Day to Halloween for me! (the rest of the season is pretty crappy for the most part for weather conditions and daylight hours).

The limits should be 2/2 with a seasonal bag limit (all recorded on license tags).

The more that I think about this whole debacle, for me it keps coming back to addressing the issue of the lack of real tangible data in regards to our actual catch for any given season.

We have GOT to get a system put into place that gives us real numbers so that we can show how much TAC we really need, in order to fish a full season for the recreational sector with realistic daily and seasonal limits. Without real data we are just treading water with one arm.
FH

Yes Yes and Yes. Totally agree we need real numbers not these BS numbers they keep coming up with. We should have to record everything we catch and turn the license at the beginning of the year before we can get a new one. I'm all for the 2/2 thing and a March to October season with a season limit.

 

[lorneparker1]

quick question here: what about the rec fishers that cant make it out with THEIR OWN BOAT, until mid to late august?....you know the ones that maybe cant book off for their holiday till that time?...guess they are just shyte out of luck eh?....selfish?...hmmmm...not trying to start a shyte storm here, just wondering what ppl think of that, or has anyone but me even thought of those folks that don't or can't come till then?....just curious cause the word selfish has been thrown around quite a bit lately....holmes*

Holmes i agree. Those people will be **** out of luck. I dont know what that number represents to be honest but i cant imagine its large. In this day and age, there are not very many people that only get 1 weeks vacation that must be taken in august. lol. As imentioned along the lines somewhere. I have 2 charters booked this year. Same as i do almost every year. Every year they have been in august. the first week and the third week. This year they are both in july. Why? Because i thought we all had the same mind set. We are getting screwed by the DFO, so we were going to make the best of it and when its shut down, we would start our lobbying and hopefully get another chunk. Not this lipstick on a pig approach.

Fish hunter well said. I am all for short term pain for long term gain. I thought we all were. Not we are going to have short term pain for long term pain. Sweet deal.

 

[searun]

Interesting approach. Not sure I understand how that isn't a little self serving and places the season at risk for others who are less fortunate to have flexibility as to when they can book holidays. Are you suggesting that your answer to this problem is to sacrifice the fishing vacations of those who planned trips in August and September. If you look closely at the 2011 Hali catch numbers there are a lot of fish caught in August. I imagine that is because very few anglers are actually on the water fishing, but those very few are really good. Nice logic there. Your short term pain argument is hollow. No one really cares in DFO if we fish out our quota before the end of the summer. I'm all for going back to 2 and 3 actually...but unfortunately that ain't going to fly this season.

This is really simple. We have just over 1 million pounds, we can either fish it out really fast or stretch it out and make it last as long as we can. Once its gone, its....well, gone. Then I suppose if we follow your logic, we can all stamp our feet and really show em how mad we are then. Yep, that would prove our point and they will sit up and take notice for sure.

A little tongue n cheek to make the point that "it is what it is" for this season and we need to get a plan in place to solve our immediate problem - then focus on the longer term arguments. I think we also have to be focused on ensuring all anglers have access to a fishery for the entire summer, not just when some of us happen to have time booked off. Our choices should be about finding a way to ensure all of our opportunities are maximized within the scope of options (quota) we have.

We can fight the larger issues later when the issues aren't this time sensitive. And, yes I agree the present approach to allocation is unfair. I do think we have to be thoughtful and strategic in our approach as opposed to masochistic cut our noses off to spite ourselves hissy fits. Proves nothing.

Get involved in the process, see how it works, and you will see that we have a long way to go.

 

[lorneparker1]

Interesting approach. Not sure I understand how that isn't a little self serving and places the season at risk for others who are less fortunate to have flexibility as to when they can book holidays. Are you suggesting that your answer to this problem is to sacrifice the fishing vacations of those who planned trips in August and September. If you look closely at the 2011 Hali catch numbers there are a lot of fish caught in August. I imagine that is because very few anglers are actually on the water fishing, but those very few are really good. Nice logic there. Your short term pain argument is hollow. No one really cares in DFO if we fish out our quota before the end of the summer. I'm all for going back to 2 and 3 actually...but unfortunately that ain't going to fly this season.

is this really about the guy that cant book holidays when he wants or about the G/O that needs to be fully booked in august? How on earth do you ever in a ZILLION life times think we will get back to 2/3 if we are recommending 1 and 1. We are telling them that even the current 1 and 2 is too much!! why is this so hard to comprehend.

This is really simple. We have just over 1 million pounds, we can either fish it out really fast or stretch it out and make it last as long as we can. Once its gone, its....well, gone. Then I suppose if we follow your logic, we can all stamp our feet and really show em how mad we are then. Yep, that would prove our point and they will sit up and take notice for sure.

Did we not have a small win? Did they not take notice? We (you guys) rallied the troops man. Look at all the support you gathered. YOU DID THAT. Because you know what, us rec anglers are a tough crowd to get together. You sold us on the ideology that this was what we needed to do to make change. Now you are saying that it wont do anything?

A little tongue n cheek to make the point that "it is what it is" for this season and we need to get a plan in place to solve our immediate problem - then focus on the longer term arguments. I think we also have to be focused on ensuring all anglers have access to a fishery for the entire summer, not just when some of us happen to have time booked off. Our choices should be about finding a way to ensure all of our opportunities are maximized within the scope of options (quota) we have.

We can fight the larger issues later when the issues aren't this time sensitive. And, yes I agree the present approach to allocation is unfair. I do think we have to be thoughtful and strategic in our approach as opposed to masochistic cut our noses off to spite ourselves hissy fits. Proves nothing.

Get involved in the process, see how it works, and you will see that we have a long way to go.

I am more involved then you might think. Of course i am not on the secret meeting commitee but i am working way there. 2/3 will never fly ever if you say 1 to 1 is ok!!! Holy crap why is this so hard, I feel i must be a bit slow. Because this is impossible for me to comprehend. There is no more larger issue to fight. We are going to make this work right?

 

[lorneparker1]

Im not sure what that means But if that was shot at my attempt to rally the troops to see through the fog and continue to fight i have lots of pm',s emails, text messages and voice mails over the last week that would prove other wise. I am a passionate guy and wear my emotions on my sleeve. I am tired and going to bed.

Lorne

 

[Sculpin]

Im not sure what that means But if that was shot at my attempt to rally the troops to see through the fog and continue to fight i have lots of pm',s emails, text messages and voice mails over the last week that would prove other wise. I am a passionate guy and wear my emotions on my sleeve. I am tired and going to bed.

Lorne

It wasn't a shot at you at all Lorne. I actually deleted my post. I am sitting on the fence until I can figure everything out myself.

I'm like FD I just want to get out there and fish for em!

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Thought Searun was done with this circular argument? Guess not but I see he's still beating the same old drum and hasn't answered a single fact, argument or line of logic presented in any number of posts that expose the weak attempt to extend this single season by a paltry 6-weeks (at best and at the expense of the bigger fight) for the lame duck that it is.

 

[Fishmyster]

To whome it may concern: I want to personaly thank everyone especialy Sea run for all the work you have been doing to lobby and convince dfo the importance of halibut to all sportsmen in this country. There unfortunately is no amount of explanation that will convince some people that your efforts are truly directed to better the situation for ALL recreational anglers. Some may call you and the guiding industry greedy or self serving but I know diffrent. Have it be known that the thankless hours of work you and others do are greatly appreciated by most. The anglers opposing the idea of compramise probably don't fully understand all the issues at hand. Personaly I agree that we need to pace our limmited harvest to prolong the season and keep all the costal comunities active as long as possible by offering halibut retention. When the TAC goes up we can push for more. This is by no means greedy or selfish and anybody claiming so should take a good what they are saying. The colaberated efforts of you and so many others to work for solutions that suit all anglers needs are honorable. Don't let any of this forum negativity get to you! Some people just don't know how hard you are working for us all. Thank you.
Ken Myers

 

[Englishman]

Whatever the Pros and Cons of these ideas for 1 and 1, slot limits etc to extend the season, the fact remains it HAS split us into two groups. The recreational anglers on this forum are against the compromise (for the most part) and the guides and operators are for the proposals (for the most part).
And that, in and of itself, is sad.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand" - Abe Lincoln

 

[Rum Buddies]

To whome it may concern: I want to personaly thank everyone especialy Sea run for all the work you have been doing to lobby and convince dfo the importance of halibut to all sportsmen in this country. There unfortunately is no amount of explanation that will convince some people that your efforts are truly directed to better the situation for ALL recreational anglers. Some may call you and the guiding industry greedy or self serving but I know diffrent. Have it be known that the thankless hours of work you and others do are greatly appreciated by most. The anglers opposing the idea of compramise probably don't fully understand all the issues at hand. Personaly I agree that we need to pace our limmited harvest to prolong the season and keep all the costal comunities active as long as possible by offering halibut retention. When the TAC goes up we can push for more. This is by no means greedy or selfish and anybody claiming so should take a good what they are saying. The colaberated efforts of you and so many others to work for solutions that suit all anglers needs are honorable. Don't let any of this forum negativity get to you! Some people just don't know how hard you are working for us all. Thank you.
Ken Myers

I fully agree with Ken, well said.

 

[Derby]

To whome it may concern: I want to personaly thank everyone especialy Sea run for all the work you have been doing to lobby and convince dfo the importance of halibut to all sportsmen in this country. There unfortunately is no amount of explanation that will convince some people that your efforts are truly directed to better the situation for ALL recreational anglers. Some may call you and the guiding industry greedy or self serving but I know diffrent. Have it be known that the thankless hours of work you and others do are greatly appreciated by most. The anglers opposing the idea of compramise probably don't fully understand all the issues at hand. Personaly I agree that we need to pace our limmited harvest to prolong the season and keep all the costal comunities active as long as possible by offering halibut retention. When the TAC goes up we can push for more. This is by no means greedy or selfish and anybody claiming so should take a good what they are saying. The colaberated efforts of you and so many others to work for solutions that suit all anglers needs are honorable. Don't let any of this forum negativity get to you! Some people just don't know how hard you are working for us all. Thank you.
Ken Myers

Yup..... Well said Ken....

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Not sure if many on here have seen this info about the halibut decision posted on DFO's rec website:

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/...alibut-fletan/qa-qr-alloc-attrib-2012-eng.htm

Couple beauties from the Q & A section:

"The Department is striking a fair balance between the sectors and to manage the halibut fishery in a manner that ensures the conservation and sustainable use of fish stocks, while creating economic and social benefits for Canadians. The announced change is a one-time permanent correction to the Pacific Halibut allocation based on a review of the process that led to the original 88:12 formula. 85% of the resource will be allocated to the commercial sector and 15% to the recreational sector. The new allocation adequately addresses recreational access during years of average abundance and strikes a fair balance."

"The 2003 88%/12% allocation formula was not an arbitrary decision. Recreational fishing for halibut had increased over a period of time, warranting a catch-sharing arrangement between the commercial and recreational sectors. In 2002, Stephen Kelleher Q.C. was hired to provide independent advice on an allocation arrangement of Pacific halibut for both sectors. The recommendation from Mr. Kelleher was 91%/9%. In October 2003, the Department announced the 88%/12% halibut allocation policy. The additional 3% was provided to allow for growth within the recreational sector."

"For those recreational fishermen who want to fish beyond the end of the season that is determined in the interest of conservation, we encourage them to make use of the experimental licence to acquire additional quota at market value."

I'd say hopes for future concessions are VERY optimistic.

 

[Labman2]

"The announced change is a one-time permanent correction to the Pacific Halibut allocation based on a review of the process that led to the original 88:12 formula."
Guess that means "Until challenged in Court"!

 

[lorneparker1]

To whome it may concern: I want to personaly thank everyone especialy Sea run for all the work you have been doing to lobby and convince dfo the importance of halibut to all sportsmen in this country. There unfortunately is no amount of explanation that will convince some people that your efforts are truly directed to better the situation for ALL recreational anglers. Some may call you and the guiding industry greedy or self serving but I know diffrent. Have it be known that the thankless hours of work you and others do are greatly appreciated by most. The anglers opposing the idea of compramise probably don't fully understand all the issues at hand. Personaly I agree that we need to pace our limmited harvest to prolong the season and keep all the costal comunities active as long as possible by offering halibut retention. When the TAC goes up we can push for more. This is by no means greedy or selfish and anybody claiming so should take a good what they are saying. The colaberated efforts of you and so many others to work for solutions that suit all anglers needs are honorable. Don't let any of this forum negativity get to you! Some people just don't know how hard you are working for us all. Thank you.
Ken Myers

Ken,


. I have never once thrown one person under the bus. I think I have actually been pretty careful try and speak with purpose. I have also tried quite hard to recognize what has been accomplished, and from who we owe it too. The guides and lodges are the ones that got us fired up a few years ago in the first place. They rallied the troops, so to speak.They put all the effort in to set things up. And wow it was amazing to see everyone really together. 1 voice 1 objective. IMO the abrupt change in direction completely under minded everything that was accomplished and i have yet to see any arguement brought forth that makes any sense other then "this was the best idea" Obviously in the minds of many that is debatable and IMO it was the worst thing ever and give in to the DFO scam, set a brutal prescendce that we may have to live with forever. I cant get it through my thick skull and small brain why this was brought forth. Its a terrible idea. How many people are going to book hali trip with you guys if this implemented and carried over for next year (the 1 to 1)?

So id like to change the topic. How do we move forward? How do we re-unite the masses? I am sure im not helping, but i want too.