Halibut issue

[chris73]

I am not sure what part of our fight you don't understand ding dong. As stated numerous times here, as has been emphasized in every town hall meeting by the coalition, and in many educated media releases - the sportfishing sector has no quarrel with the commercial sector but rather with DFO - the one and only decision maker who drafted and executed this mess. We do not go to the commercials and fight them but demand from DFO to rectify the mess they created. That a few wealthy slipper skippers will hopefully lose their free pension in the process is rather a positive side effect - in the public eyes.

It's that simple and therefore makes all your confused talk about law and such rather redundant.

 

[searun]

searun; For the most part, the sport sector has already addressed pertinent issues related to the Law and Act's that are key to continue on with. Once noted and addressed in the correct manor, the statements will not be ignored by the Fed or DFO.

Inventing the enemy, us against them mentality is the main curtailment to the entire success in changing the shortcomings that the rec sector has been experiencing. It was the rec sector who took the first swing at the commercial sector and still to this day continues to jab at them. The commercials are simply reacting to the sport sectors original attack, while they volley back and forth, all effort is slowly becoming fruitless. Simply stop the attack tactics, start working on the long term solution, no one can fault anyone for creating new friends, but creating enemies will always have its critics. Would you rather be known for implementing positive pressure and developing vast solutions that actually work? Or would you prefer to continue to rob Peter to pay Paul? By making such demands that have no real recognized consequence for either party other than to take business away from one another, again nothing accomplished.

I know that you will undoubtedly be disappointed with my generic answer, it is however at this time all that I am prepared to give to you for now. This does not mean that I won't help you with some ideas in the near future, it just means that my answers are more complicated or may give the implication of something that I am not at this moment prepared to divulge. In good faith, I will answer you very soon.

OK, I'll await patiently for you to set out the full scope of your strategy.

I'm all for "working with" as opposed to "against". The commercial sector in this instance isn't completely at liberty to fully commit however. This is at the core of the problem. By that I mean the guys who actually fish, purchase quota in order to survive, and because of the way they get quota they cannot be seen or heard being part of any rationalization of the current flipper skipper quota problem.

Deep down the guys who actually fish the quota would likely desire to get away from purchase of quota each year. The purchase makes their operations less profitable, but they need to buy quota to survive, and more importantly (here is the crux of the problem I need you to solve) they can't afford to be black listed by the flipper skippers for speaking up in any way against them for fear of never getting quota. And even worse, if they all refused to purchase quota en masse (strike) they would go broke. So an impossible catch 22 for them. How do we forge ahead in that environment?

My fight isn't with the guys who actually fish their quota, mine is with an imperfect system of allocation. Somehow we have to get off this treadmill, and my point which you seem to acknowledge is the sportfishing community has to stop infighting and learn to speak with one united voice.

So "back to you" to lay out how you would recommend (specifically) how we could find a solution that is a win/win for everyone.

Hoping to see some positive and very specific steps rather than generalizations.

 

[double trouble]

Good to see Ding Dong back. What I find most interesting is he never throws out any solid ideas, only beats around the bush.

The bottom line is someone within gov't has to recognize the original split was wrong. We told them it was wrong at the time and we were consistent with any presentations or discussions therafter. The trouble is we still can not get the message through to the commercial side nor government that lodges, charters and guides would not exist if it was not for the individual angler and his personal licence. Without that one ingredient the lodges, guides , and charters would not exist. There is no reason, nor should there be for a lodge, charter or guide to buy quota from anyone as they do not use it, there customer is the one that catches the fish and takes it home and he/she already posess a licence that allows them to retain fish within their daily limit. I would further argue that as a public angler I would not want to see the lodges, charters, or guides possess quota as they would then have a property right that I could not access without paying them for their quota. To me it would just be the same as buying quota from a commercail angler, I'm against it. The government of the day screwed this thing up in 2003 and it is high time our elected officials give some direction to DFO to fix it! And it is not by forcing the lodges, guides, and charters to buy it. All that does is further screw the quota system up. I think they've done enough damage to the public fishery already.

 

[Ding Dong!]

That a few wealthy slipper skippers will hopefully lose their free pension in the process is rather a positive side effect - in the public eyes.

It's that simple and therefore makes all your confused talk about law and such rather redundant.

Divisive tactics. They do not accomplish anything accept more of the same. More volleying and more wasted energy, again a great suggestion by "MILLERTIME", as the sentiment is overwhelming that, at least on this board there is an obvious unwillingness to look at other options, other than to focus on the negative. Too bad really.

 

[h-core]

Ding Dong = slipper skipper????????????

 

[searun]

Divisive tactics. They do not accomplish anything accept more of the same. More volleying and more wasted energy, again a great suggestion by "MILLERTIME", as the sentiment is overwhelming that, at least on this board there is an obvious unwillingness to look at other options, other than to focus on the negative. Too bad really.

I think we are waiting for you to show us some "other options". It's "too bad really" that you sit and snipe at board members without so much as offering up a positive alternative that fully recognizes the scope of the problems we face on this complicated issue. Again, looking and waiting patiently for your promised "specific steps" rather than "generalizations".

 

[Ding Dong!]

Good to see Ding Dong back. What I find most interesting is he never throws out any solid ideas, only beats around the bush.

The bottom line is someone within gov't has to recognize the original split was wrong. We told them it was wrong at the time and we were consistent with any presentations or discussions therafter. The trouble is we still can not get the message through to the commercial side nor government that lodges, charters and guides would not exist if it was not for the individual angler and his personal licence. Without that one ingredient the lodges, guides , and charters would not exist. There is no reason, nor should there be for a lodge, charter or guide to buy quota from anyone as they do not use it, there customer is the one that catches the fish and takes it home and he/she already posess a licence that allows them to retain fish within their daily limit. I would further argue that as a public angler I would not want to see the lodges, charters, or guides possess quota as they would then have a property right that I could not access without paying them for their quota. To me it would just be the same as buying quota from a commercail angler, I'm against it. The government of the day screwed this thing up in 2003 and it is high time our elected officials give some direction to DFO to fix it! And it is not by forcing the lodges, guides, and charters to buy it. All that does is further screw the quota system up. I think they've done enough damage to the public fishery already.

I like the first part of your message, as for me it is your opening sentence that I find most interesting. I have offered directional input and my view or take on where the hang up is, I have given some ideas or paths that anyone can investigate, and I have also stated numerous times, that I am in agreement that buying quota is not the answer. So to that, you will not find anything in what I say, unless you want to.

Getting past your hang up on buying quota, is your issue. Coming up with viable solutions is your issue that will help generate the end result is your issue. Developing new relationships with every sector who may be affected is your issue. If having enough fish for Canadians is the true and real issue, then Canada must stop exporting, Canada must stop guiding visitors from outside the country and simply take Canadians fishing! That however is an unreasonable expectation and can not be the true focus what so ever. There is absolutely nothing wrong with business being involved in a shared public fishery, accept when business of any kind interfere with the ability to sustain the fishery, a shared public resource. DFO at the moment, is simply following their guidelines as implemented under the Fisheries Act. They will not simply rob Peter to pay Paul under any circumstance, regardless of the faulty nature. The solution will come collectively and by consensus, notwithstanding.

 

[Ding Dong!]

I think we are waiting for you to show us some "other options". It's "too bad really" that you sit and snipe at board members without so much as offering up a positive alternative that fully recognizes the scope of the problems we face on this complicated issue. Again, looking and waiting patiently for your promised "specific steps" rather than "generalizations".

I suppose that no one deserves the snipping more than me, for I have a slightly different view or thought than most. There is absolutely nothing wrong with attacking me because I tend to form my own view, based on my own mind and experiences. I carry no issue what so ever, you are welcome to continue to share your opinion with me, and others. Most good intentions or toning views are rarely seen in and amongst a dawning crowd who carry with them the same intense vision. Searun, I fully and completely intend on sharing with you and others.

 

[Ding Dong!]

i agree that we should export less fish, and DFO IS NOT FOLLOWING THEIR GUIDELINES, that sir is crap, dfo NEEDS to be dismantled and revamped....holmes*

To understand my position as stated, "that the DFO is following their guidelines" you "Must" read the complete fisheries act in order to see that they are in fact bound to do so. Where varied, that DFO can and will be held accountable if so, that you do challenge them. Otherwise you get what they give.

 

[searun]

I suppose that no one deserves the snipping more than me, for have a slightly different view or thought. There is absolutely nothing wrong with attacking me because I tend to form my own view, based on my own mind and experiences. I carry no issue what so ever, you are welcome to continue to share your opinion with me, and others. Most good intentions are never seen in amongst a dawning crowd with the same vision. Searun, I fully and completely intend on sharing with you and others.

Thanks, I'll take you on your word that you will lay out the specifics of how we can effectively work towards a true win/win solution.

 

[wolf]

[does anyone know what percentage of the commie 88% is held by the slipper skippers?....holmes* /QUOTE]

Last year 79% was leased out
And here is some interesting fact for you ALL to see


Reported Sales in TWSF Database: Year-to-Date Comparision
For the period of April 1, 2010 to December 24, 2010
Updated January 4, 2011

Reported Sales in TWSF Database: Year-to-Date Comparision
For the period of April 1, 2010 to December 24, 2010
Updated January 4, 2011

Resident Licence Categories

Fishing Year 2009 2010 Comparative between Years
Increase/Decrease


Annual 127112 125862 -0.98% -1,250 % Amount

5 day 10889 11848 8.81% 959
3 day 17295 17754 2.65% 459
1 day 31509 31080 -1.36% -429
Senior 23366 24738 5.87% 1,372
Juvenile 38317 36742 -4.11% -1,575
Total 248,488 248,024 -0.19% -464

Non-Resident Licence Categories
2009 2010

Annual 3960 3724 -5.96% -236
5 day 14241 14368 0.89% 127
3 day 10416 10215 -1.93% -201
1 day 12410 12640 1.85% 230
Juvenile 3047 3053 0.20% 6
Total 44,074 44,000 -0.17% -74

Licence Replacements 7,576 7735

Salmon Conservation Stamps
Adult 207,933 210,593 1.28% 2,660
Replacements 5,033 5,103 0.013908 70
Total 212,966 215,696 1.28% 2,730

Breakdown of Licence Totals by Categories
Juvenile Licences 41,364 39,795 -3.79% -1,569
Adult Licences 251,198 252,229 0.41% 1,031
Total Licences 292,562 292,024 -0.18% -538

% of total issued online: Licences Stamps
23.67% 23.36%

So you see!!!! a treand there guys the commies say non canadiens take 75% of the halibut????? hmmm how can that be when there is only 44,000 lic. sold compared to 248,024 canadian lics sold and would only imagine a percentage of them only fish halibut mostly sallmon as indicated by the salmon stamp purchases.

One thing I will say is we are all in this together even if you dont like it!!!! the sports out number the charter/lodge ten fold and yes us charter/guides are making the most noise WHY for a lot of us its our livleyhood think about it in a deferant perspective for you guide/charter haters.

What ever you do for a living be it construction/retail/sales/mechanics/ what ever you do .. you been doing it for years and then all of a sudden someone comes in and say OK LISTEN STOP WORK NOW AND WE WILL TELL YOU WHEN YOU CAN COME BACK TO WORK OK!!!!!(maybe a day or 3 before we tell you)

Whats your response going to be?????WTF how am I supposed to make ends meet I just bought new tools/suits/equipment and I have to feed and maintain my family!!!!!!! this is not fair!!!!!!!

So you see same coat just painted differentlly. really think about that and think about how that would effect you and your family!!!!!! if you could live with that well your a bigger man than me cause I dont want to live like that......


Wolf

 

[scott craven]

Don't worry, you can trust DFO to make the right decision...
I'm sure they will open the season sometime soon and end it soon after.

 

[fish4all]

[does anyone know what percentage of the commie 88% is held by the slipper skippers?....holmes* /QUOTE]

Last year 79% was leased out
And here is some interesting fact for you ALL to see

couple of more facts for ya
17% is owned by fn under the picfi program, and they have no boats to fish it so that is leased back. last year it was leased to both commercial and recreational harvesters.
the other 57% does not account for fish that is leased more than once. that is if someone leases quota and they end up short, odds are if it is a small amount of fish it is re-leased.

Reported Sales in TWSF Database: Year-to-Date Comparision
For the period of April 1, 2010 to December 24, 2010
Updated January 4, 2011

Reported Sales in TWSF Database: Year-to-Date Comparision
For the period of April 1, 2010 to December 24, 2010
Updated January 4, 2011

Resident Licence Categories

Fishing Year 2009 2010 Comparative between Years
Increase/Decrease


Annual 127112 125862 -0.98% -1,250 % Amount

5 day 10889 11848 8.81% 959
3 day 17295 17754 2.65% 459
1 day 31509 31080 -1.36% -429
Senior 23366 24738 5.87% 1,372
Juvenile 38317 36742 -4.11% -1,575
Total 248,488 248,024 -0.19% -464

Non-Resident Licence Categories
2009 2010

Annual 3960 3724 -5.96% -236
5 day 14241 14368 0.89% 127
3 day 10416 10215 -1.93% -201
1 day 12410 12640 1.85% 230
Juvenile 3047 3053 0.20% 6
Total 44,074 44,000 -0.17% -74

Licence Replacements 7,576 7735

Salmon Conservation Stamps
Adult 207,933 210,593 1.28% 2,660
Replacements 5,033 5,103 0.013908 70
Total 212,966 215,696 1.28% 2,730

Breakdown of Licence Totals by Categories
Juvenile Licences 41,364 39,795 -3.79% -1,569
Adult Licences 251,198 252,229 0.41% 1,031
Total Licences 292,562 292,024 -0.18% -538

% of total issued online: Licences Stamps
23.67% 23.36%

just curious. what are the 5033 replacement licences for? any idea how many of those are maxed out and make it to the garbage?

So you see!!!! a treand there guys the commies say non canadiens take 75% of the halibut????? hmmm how can that be when there is only 44,000 lic. sold compared to 248,024 canadian lics sold and would only imagine a percentage of them only fish halibut mostly sallmon as indicated by the salmon stamp purchases.

nobody said 75% was taken by non canadians. it was 75% by lodge/charter. Can you pull out of the numbers how many licences were bought strictly to go after the sockeye run last year with all the hype

One thing I will say is we are all in this together even if you dont like it!!!! the sports out number the charter/lodge ten fold and yes us charter/guides are making the most noise WHY for a lot of us its our livleyhood think about it in a deferant perspective for you guide/charter haters.

so if you make your living on catching fish does that not make you a commercial enterprise?

What ever you do for a living be it construction/retail/sales/mechanics/ what ever you do .. you been doing it for years and then all of a sudden someone comes in and say OK LISTEN STOP WORK NOW AND WE WILL TELL YOU WHEN YOU CAN COME BACK TO WORK OK!!!!!(maybe a day or 3 before we tell you)

can you imagine loosing 45% of your income and then having someone come and try and undermine another 10-15% through lobbying and misinformation. only to try and increase revenue in another business

Whats your response going to be?????WTF how am I supposed to make ends meet I just bought new tools/suits/equipment and I have to feed and maintain my family!!!!!!! this is not fair!!!!!!!

welcome to the fish business.

So you see same coat just painted differentlly. really think about that and think about how that would effect you and your family!!!!!! if you could live with that well your a bigger man than me cause I dont want to live like that......

funny how you have no problem trying to kick the crap out of the commercial industry and their ability to make a living.

Wolf;
like it or not we are all in this together, commies, recs, fn's. the fighting between sectors plays right into the hands of dfo. no matter what direction this goes there are no winners. the commies have had to rationalize their fleet to make things work and it may be the way of the lodge/charter sector as well.

I will say that after reading a fair bit and going over some posts from those like dd that the solution is far more complicated then just moving fish from the slipper skippers. sounds like a good plan but almost impossible to flush out who exactly they are. A big question to me is what do yo do with the 17% gov just bought for fn and now leases out for top dollar?

 

[wolf]

Once again you have missed the point FISh I was comparing..... you know what your not worth the time if you dont get it have a good day....

Wolf

 

[fish4all]

Once again you have missed the point FISh I was comparing..... you know what your not worth the time if you dont get it have a good day....

Wolf

i do get it wolf just a difference of opinion.

i would also like to see a breakout of bc residents and the rest of canada. It is a good ploy to try and use the "belongs to all canadians" angle but i think of it a little different.

the day I get an oil check in the mail from Alberta is the day I will say fish on this coast belong to all canadians to come and fish for practically nothing.

 

[scott craven]

Short sightedness will not help anyone's cause as
there are 2 sides to this coin.
All sides should work together for an equitable agreement.
Bickering will only lead to further lack of action by Gov't.

 

[wolf]

Sorry nothing about opinion you dont understand it so you dont get it..

 

[double trouble]

Excerpt from Ding Dong
"Getting past your hang up on buying quota, is your issue. Coming up with viable solutions is your issue that will help generate the end result is your issue. Developing new relationships with every sector who may be affected is your issue. If having enough fish for Canadians is the true and real issue, then Canada must stop exporting, Canada must stop guiding visitors from outside the country and simply take Canadians fishing! That however is an unreasonable expectation and can not be the true focus what so ever. There is absolutely nothing wrong with business being involved in a shared public fishery, accept when business of any kind interfere with the ability to sustain the fishery, a shared public resource. DFO at the moment, is simply following their guidelines as implemented under the Fisheries Act. They will not simply rob Peter to pay Paul under any circumstance, regardless of the faulty nature. The solution will come collectively and by consensus, notwithstanding."

Ding Dong, I'm with you on we can not quit exporting but I don't know if you believe that is what I'm saying or you just threw that in to add some colour. And your bit about nothing wrong with business being involved...no kidding Sherlock. And the only one interfering with a sustainable shared public resource is DFO. You and I both know there is commercial quota for sale at the right price and my message to you and others is the Federal Gov't should buy enough for a viable public fishery. That's it. A lot of people, including yourself seem to think that lodges, etc. should buy quota. In my opinion that is totally wrong. Anglers such as myself would still be in the exact same situation we are now except we would have to buy the quota from a business as you put it.

Oh, and DFO would not be robbing Peter to pay Paul. the commercial guys sell their quota often, 230 times between 2003 and 2007 alone.

 

[Clipper]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said so I'll say it again - under NO circumstances would I, as a recreational fisher, agree to a quota purchase from commercial interests who were given said quota by our government absolutely free. Quota can and should be re-allocated by our government from those commercial quota holders that do NOT actively fish and split in an equitable fashion between the recreational and active commercial fishers at NO cost to those parties.

Do this and the problem is solved for both the recreational sector and the active commercial sector. Not so?

 

[double trouble]

In my opinion your "not so" comment is correct. It appears a lot of the original gifted commercial guys sold out to the current slipper skippers. Some saw an opportunity to make a buck and bought the quota from the original licence holder and then either resold it or are leasing it as they see fit. I don't know how the gov't can take it back without some kind of compensation. As I said earlier, I know I wouldn't like it and would head to the courts in the way of a class action if I bought quota legally and had it taken away by the same gov't without any monies paid to me for it.

I know there is a group out there that are saying too bad for the slipper skippers, but I think that is a very simplistic view. In as much as the original quota shares were not thought out well, so too is taking it back without compensation.