Float Free or Die

ziggy said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Province can pass any law restricting navigation or anchorage for a reasonable amount of time. BC however has control of the sea bed in inland waters such as for example Georgia Strait (Supreme Court ruled on this) due to a condition of joining Canada. So if they are not trying to supercede Federal laws by trying to enforce their own laws or bylaws I don't see a conflict. In fact I think we can all agree no one is enforcing anything, or very little.

To me there is two different issues here. Do you have the right to anchor your vessel for a reasonable time? Yes, so long as you don't impede navigation. Do you have the right to claim the use of Provincial land for your long-term exclusive use? I say no, nor should you be able to!

In essence my point is not that the Province can't trump Federal law (are moored boats exercising their right to navigate?), but as in many other cases Federal, Provincial and Municipal laws can co exist and complement each other. It may all come down to a ruling about how much time is reasonable to remain immobile on both Federal and Provincial seabeds.

By the way I believe you are totally wrong regarding Municipal bylaws on the water. A simple Google search came up with West Kelowna and Saanich amongst others.
Click to expand...

Hi Ziggy , read Marcoux v. St-Charles-de-Bellechasse at http://www.admiraltylaw.com/grouped_summaries.php?topic=26 and you will see that The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that municipalities do not have the right to regulate navigation. Many still pass "bylaws" which are not legal and are really just harassment of mariners.
Transport Canada has already defined what is reasonable anchorage ,but unfortunately most municipalities (with the exception of Vancouver) either don't agree or don't understand the process OR have decided to go down the road of passing ridiculous bylaws to try and get their way.
Don't get me wrong Ziggy , I am not in love with floating garbage but if rights are given up to local authorities you can kiss goodbye to freedom on the water!
 
Last edited:
No one is suggesting municipalities or the Province can stop vessels from navigating through waterways in their jurisdiction. I believe I have stated that several times and that's is the crux of the case you quote.


What I am talking about is vessels that are essentially squatting on Provincial land are in fact not navigating at all. These vessels are staking our public land for their exclusive use.

I'm sure most here agree that anchoring for a few days is significantly different than setting up permanent or semi permanent habitation in a public area. Then again, I guess we are allowed to live in parks now, so perhaps I'm wrong
 
triplenickel said:
The craziness doesn't end in BC..
Click to expand...
4 Sure 3x5 - However - I think it is more accurately called "corruption", - provincial/federal - Liberal/Conservative - all the same- and all that changing of parties ever does - is change the $38M drapes at 24 Sussex:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11/23/24-sussex-dr-renovations-trudeau-costs_n_13183064.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...er-with-chinese-billionaires/article32971362/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-trudeau-fundraising-1.3866479
 
ziggy said:
Well this would seem to solve the debate as to whether Municipalities can enact bylaws to solve the problem? Of course it can still be tested in court.
Click to expand...
Can and SHOULD, ziggy. The unfortunate reality is that the boaters are unlikely to have the financial ability to fight a prolonged battle in the courts - or the ability to effectively self-defend themselves. Maybe that's why the municipality decided to act. Federal Acts and the common right of navigation will trump any municipal by-laws in court.
 
Dogbreath said:
That's from Geese-counts are very low off the dog beach where I swim because they dogs chase any Geese away even swimming out after them if they get too close and looking around the beach and the grassy areas in Hadden Park you don't see any Goose **** at all (in summer).

The health authority in Toronto spent a frightening amount of money trying to determine exactly what was causing the high coliform counts along the beaches on Lake Ontario and that's what they found.
Click to expand...

One rain shower through any urban sprawl as it gathers everything up from dog turds, lawn and gardens pesticides, driveways, roads, toxic chems from house projects mixes all that brew dropping into streams and harbours.... now there is a problem. Harzards to navigation need to be attended to ...otherwise let these folks answer to their "beat of a different drummer". Let them be.... witch burning is over.
 
I agree with some of what you're saying AA. No one has the right to ban navigation unless for safety reasons. Also no one should impede others ability to navigate by placing a structure in their path.

But to use the analogy of a highway or roadway, we all have the right to travel on it but we are restricted on where we can park and for how long. I think you'd have a tough time convincing the general public that the right to limit parking time and location impacts their ability to travel on the countries roads, in fact many would argue the opposite is true. IMO these vessels are not navigating and are simply for lack of better terms parked either permanently or semi permanently. No one is suggesting they have no right to anchor, simply that a reasonable time limit be applied.
 
seascene said:
One rain shower through any urban sprawl as it gathers everything up from dog turds, lawn and gardens pesticides, driveways, roads, toxic chems from house projects mixes all that brew dropping into streams and harbours.... now there is a problem. Harzards to navigation need to be attended to ...otherwise let these folks answer to their "beat of a different drummer". Let them be.... witch burning is over.
Click to expand...
I don't see respecting the environment,as witch burning, or using the argument that because there are other ways pollutants can be introduced a little overboard sewage is ok. Nothing wrong with sewage treatment as the City of Victoria is finding out.
In the 70's I was in Hong Kong and visited the floating city of Aberdeen. It was essentially a huge raft of Junks. No sewage treatment, no garbage collection, but a smell you picked up miles away. It's gone now, the Chinese government so famous for their environmental record, could no longer turn a blind eye. It apparently started with a few boats.
 
Composting Head.jpg
agentaqua said:
Yes and no, Beemer. I agree it is smart to carry insurance - in addition to the funding available through the Ship-source Oil Pollution Fund - as outlined in the Marine Liability Act. That is irrespective of identifying what boat/owner released a hydrocarbon impact.

I think liability for accidents and/or death to other boats/properties and people would be in order. I know commercial fishing needs to carry that kind of insurance.

Ya - I think people have an idealized myth of what shipboard life and those costs will be. Then the reality sets in. I don't blame people trying to find relief from the unaffordable housing market.[/QUOTE
Click to expand...
RiverBoy said:
The author does a phenomenal job stating both sides of the debate. This is a tough one, as I think we all have that " F - it " moment where the thought of just aiming our boat into the wild and leaving the world behind as we know it in our wake is an appealing option.
I remember my father telling me about an old hermit he used to wave to by boat as he went to work logging up in Deolation Sound. This old guy was a former logger himself; now squatting on government soil.
Years would go by with this same routine. One day my dad said, he was missing. Didn't think much of it. Weeks passed. Then months....then a year.
He found out later he was discovered dead on the bluff above his cabin,his body staring towards the sound that his cabin resided on.
Died of natural causes in the place of his choosing....


I know this isn't the same scenario, but these folks, for the most part aren't hurting anyone.
They are choosing to exist in a place where they are comfortable, with like minded folk. Their existence harkens me back to a simpler time, where the entire coast was inhabited by settlers, homesteaders, small villages or settlements, Finnish, Japanese, and of course Native communities.

All that being said, if one of their boats turns into the next Exxon Valdez, the owner of said boat should be on the hook for EVERY RED CENT of the associated cleaning bill.
Click to expand...

CC provincial government has allowed a criminal Asian wealthy class to own a vast swath of the residential housing stock in the lower mainland making even the average to above average income family to be helpless from being homeless here. Corruption on an unbelievalable scale has transpired here...it used to take gunpowder to own another countries real estate.

As far as waste disposal goes, I installed a simple composting marine head on my sailboat 10 yrs ago.... has a bin with compost material, a simple fan to continually dry the bin.... liquids just fall to the front. Waste is composted when full...about one month with 2 people aboard....works great. These units are not expensive as the links show they are highly effective.


http://natureshead.net/?gclid=CLOMwcunpNICFYF9fgod5XUCAA

http://airheadtoilet.com/

My 10 year old unit...
 

Attachments

  • Composting Head.jpg
    Composting Head.jpg
    159.6 KB · Views: 1
ziggy said:
I don't see respecting the environment,as witch burning, or using the argument that because there are other ways pollutants can be introduced a little overboard sewage is ok. Nothing wrong with sewage treatment as the City of Victoria is finding out.
In the 70's I was in Hong Kong and visited the floating city of Aberdeen. It was essentially a huge raft of Junks. No sewage treatment, no garbage collection, but a smell you picked up miles away. It's gone now, the Chinese government so famous for their environmental record, could no longer turn a blind eye. It apparently started with a few boats.
Click to expand...
I think you hit the nail on the head, Ziggy. ALL boats should be required to have some form of sewerage treatment - and they are supposed to - holding tanks, anyways. I don't think this municipal by-law is about sewerage though (hypocritically Victoria still dumps raw sewerage) - it's about: "no boats in my front view of the water, please."

AND - there is a way to restrict boating through federal regulations - NOT municipal..
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2008-120/
 

Attachments

  • LOCAL_AUTHORITIES__GUIDE_-_ENGLISH_-_ACCESSIBLE_PDF.pdf
    436.6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
Constitutional Law - Validity of Municipal By-law restricting motor boats on lake
http://www.canlii.org/en/qc/qccs/doc/2015/2015canlii59742/2015canlii59742.html
Marcoux v. St-Charles-de-Bellechasse (Municipalité de), 2015 CanLII 59742

Précis: A municipal bylaw restricting the types of vessels that could be operated on a lake was held to be invalid.

Facts: The appellants were convicted of violating a municipal by-law that prohibited the use of certain watercraft on a lake. The appellants challenged the constitutional validity of the ... by-law on the grounds that it concerned navigation and shipping, a federal power. The municipality justified the by-law on the basis that it was part of a multifaceted strategy to protect the environment and was therefore valid under the ancillary powers doctrine. At first instance, the trial judge agreed with the municipality and held the by-law to be valid. The appellants appealed.

Decision:The appeal is allowed and the appellants are acquitted.

Held:The protection of the environment is a shared jurisdiction between the provinces and Federal Government and both levels of government should take a cooperative and coordinated approach to such matters. The legal analysis should be undertaken with these considerations in mind. The first part of the analysis is to identify the pith and substance, the primary purpose or dominant characteristic, of the impugned legislation. Once the matter has been classified the second step is to classify it under one of the heads of power in the Constitution Act.

The municipality admits that the pith and substance of the by-law is navigation which is within federal jurisdiction but says it is saved by the ancillary powers doctrine. The ancillary powers doctrine recognizes that a degree of jurisdictional overlap is inevitable. Under the doctrine an otherwise invalid law can be saved “where it is an important part of a broader legislative scheme that is within the jurisdiction of the enacting level of government”. However, the municipality has not proven the existence of a complex regulatory scheme which would permit the application of the doctrine. Moreover, the seriousness of the intrusion of the impugned measure must be assessed relative to its degree of integration in the scheme. A serious intrusion requires a high degree of integration. The by-law here is a serious intrusion into the federal power over navigation and shipping and, if such intrusion was allowed, would have the effect of eviscerating the federal power. The by-law is therefore invalid and not saved by the ancillary powers doctrine. Additionally, the interjurisdictional immunity doctrine applies and the by-law is inapplicable. Control of navigation on lakes is at the core of the federal power over navigation. Finally, if the by-law was valid and applicable, it would deprive the federal government of its power to decide navigational restrictions under the Vessel Operation Restriction Regulations. This would be an operational conflict giving rise to the paramountcy doctrine and rendering the by-law inoperative.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

tinboatrobb
Corks,
Replies
2
Views
381
tinboatrobb
tinboatrobb
cohochinook
Float House for sale Tahsis, BC
Replies
0
Views
681
cohochinook
cohochinook
B
Float plane to Winter Harbour
Replies
4
Views
895
N2013
N2013
zurk
anyone need a full pre-purchase boat hull survey on a fiberglass boat hull for free in greater vancouver area ?
Replies
6
Views
2K
zurk
zurk
B
Winter Harbour Float Cabin
Replies
7
Views
2K
ValorFish
ValorFish
Back
Top