2009 Fraser Sockeye & State of the Ocean

[Charlie]

I was just reading up on the difference between the Fraser River 2009 and 2010 Sockeye returns, looking for some reason for why a collapse one year and record return the next. It is kind of interesting, as there isn’t much difference in the State of the Pacific Ocean between the years 2006/2007/2008. With those years showing improvements, basically due to the La Niña conditions.

I am not really done, but this is the information I am currently finding. Looking at the State of the Pacific Ocean 2007 report and here are some excerpts from it I found interesting:

quote:
Except for a brief warm period in summer, local ocean waters were cooler than normal through 2007 and into 2008, in contrast to warm waters of the previous four years. These cooler temperatures were associated with La Niña conditions in spring and autumn 2007, and also to a shift in the Pacific Decadal Oscillation to a cool state. This local cooling was the global exception. Most of the world was warmer than normal with record high temperatures over land and the most reduced extent and duration of Arctic sea ice on record.

However, biomass of the euphausid T. spinifera, an important food source for juvenile salmon entering Barkley Sound, was low in 2007, indicating poor growth of salmon stocks that migrate through there and feed on this prey. The shift to a much stronger La Niña in winter 2007-08 anticipates improvement in growth and survival rates for WCVI coho, sockeye, and chinook migrating seaward in 2008.

General groundfish surveys, now into their fourth year, reported low catch weights per tow in 2007 in all regions. In Queen Charlotte Sound, in particular, an across-the-board decrease in biomass indices for almost all species was noted. Herring biomass was low in most BC waters, (except Strait of Georgia), attributed to less feed and more predators during previous warm years when herring were young and small in size. Low recruitment rates are expected in the next few years in all regions. Biomasses of pink shrimp, arrowtooth flounder, Dover sole, and Pacific halibut off the west coast of Vancouver Island in May declined, also attributed to warm waters of previous years. Hake were few in number off the west coast of Vancouver Island and scattered into many more regions in 2007 in BC waters. Reasons for the declines and scattering are not clear, but low T. spinifera biomass (a favourite hake food) and interactions with jumbo squid, a recent intruder are potential explanations. Interestingly, the 2007 hake survey captured these squid in Canadian waters only.

In the Strait of Georgia, surface waters were somewhat warmer than normal through the year, but deeper waters cooled to temperatures observed in 1999 to 2002. Phytoplankton biomass was higher in summer and lower in autumn. Its spring bloom arrived relatively early. Herring biomass declined from the very high levels of only a few years ago. Very few Fraser River sockeye returned to spawn in 2007, most likely due to very poor feeding conditions and/or increases in predators resulting from warm waters during the spring of 2005. Marine indicators of ocean productivity suggest that sockeye survivals in 2008 should be somewhat better than in 2007, but still below normal. Coho salmon returns to the Strait of Georgia in 2008 are predicted to be low, perhaps even lower than in 2006, based on very poor growth and low CPUE recorded in the 2007 survey in the Strait of Georgia. Chinook returns in 2008 are predicted to be below average - numbers of 5-yr olds returning from the disastrous 2005 sea entry year will probably be very low. Chum returns in 2008 are anticipated to be average, based on the average CPUEs in the July 2006 survey. It is expected that there will be a large abundance of juvenile pink salmon in the strait in 2008, which may put pressure on marine survival of other juvenile salmonids.

ASSESSMENT AND CONCLUSIONS
Our globe was warm almost everywhere, but the Northeast Pacific cooled with La Niña
According to the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, the temperature over land and ocean in 2007 was tied with 1998 for the second warmest year in the era of instrument data, which began in the late 1800s. Land temperatures in 2007 were the highest since the beginning of instrumental record…

The most anomalously warm ocean surface appeared in the Arctic Ocean north of Bering Strait, contributing to the record low ice coverage in the Arctic Ocean in late summer 2007. Land temperatures have risen steadily since the 1970s, and the moderating effect of ocean temperatures has kept the global average temperature over land and sea from rising as rapidly. But in the eastern Pacific from Cape Horn to Alaska, waters ran much cooler than normal in 2007.

Other ocean indices such as PDO and its sister the Victoria Mode also track these cool waters. Wind patterns over the Gulf of Alaska often vary with the rise and decline of both El Niño and La Niña.

Winter winds in 2006-07 and 2007-08 blew from a more westerly direction, with colder temperatures. Coldest winds were in January 2008 (right panel), with isobars distorted by shifts in the Aleutian Low (L) and North Pacific High (H)…

The BC and Oregon zooplankton communities returned to ‘coolocean’ species in 2007
Although cooling began in BC southern shelf waters in 2006, recovery of the boreal shelf copepods and northern chaetognaths and decline of the southern copepods and chaetognaths were delayed until 2007. Even in 2007, the return to cool ocean biomass levels and community mix was confined primarily to the continental shelf. Offshore waters off southern Vancouver Island remained relatively unproductive.

The copepod community on the Oregon Shelf was a “cold water boreal” community and dominated by cold neritic species, from February through December 2007. This is in contrast to the previous three (warm) years during which warm neritic species were prominent (Paracalanus parvus, Acartia tonsa and Calanus pacificus), as shown in last year’s “State of the Pacific Ocean” report.

The changes in zooplankton community composition in the past two decades appear to have had large effects on fish growth and survival, probably because the ‘cool water’ zooplankton are better fish food (larger individual body size and much higher energy content). Because much of the year-to-year variability of marine survival rate of harvested fish species occurs at early life stages (for salmon, in their first year after ocean entry), recent zooplankton anomalies provide a useful index of juvenile fish nutrition and a ‘leading indicator’ for subsequent adult fish recruitment.

Total mesozooplankton biomass for the deep-sea offshore BC region (from the continental slope out to 145 °W and between 48° and 55 °N) was very focussed in 2007 with most of the spring/summer biomass (73%) occurring in May and a second smaller peak in July. Although conditions were cooler, the time of peak biomass has not yet returned to June, where it was during cool conditions in 2000/01. The 2007 Neocalanus plumchrus peak, which makes up the bulk of the spring biomass, was later than it was during the warmer 2004-2006 period but not as late as in 2000/01. However, the copepod biomass in July 2007 was mostly made up of the larger N. cristatus; high numbers of this species have not been seen this late in the year since 2001.

Low returns of sockeye coast-wide, especially in the Fraser
With the exception of northern B.C., sockeye returns were generally low in 2007 (Fig. 10).
Looking at the time series for various index stocks indicates:
• Since 1970, maximum returns for all populations occurred during the early 1990’s immediately following the strong La Niña event of 1989.
• Central Coast, Vancouver Island (WCVI) and Fraser index-stocks all declined from early-1990s highs to persistent, sub-average returns since the mid-1990s.
• North Coast and Transboundary index-stocks declined from early-1990s highs to subaverage values by the late-1990s but since the year 2000 have exhibited a higher frequency of above-average returns than Central and South coast stocks.
• Populations entering continental shelf areas under stronger oceanic influences appear most responsive to La Niña-like (anomalously cool, survival favourable) and El Niño-like (anomalously warm, survival less favourable) conditions than stocks entering more protected estuarine waters.
• Persistence of strong El Niño-like conditions through the 2005 sea entry period by smolts was associated with low adult return rates in 2007 for Central Coast (Rivers and Smith Inlet), WCVI (Barkley Sound) and Fraser (Chilko Lake) sockeye index stocks.

All four major run timing groups of sockeye salmon returned to the Fraser River in very low numbers in 2007. These low returns are almost certainly due to unusually poor ocean conditions after juvenile salmon left the river in spring 2005, a factor that hampered DFO predictions of returning numbers.

How bad were ocean conditions for Fraser River salmon? Fig. 11 shows a time series of marine survival for Chilko Lake Fraser River sockeye. The 2003 Chilko Lake brood year entered the ocean in 2005 and returned to spawn in 2007. Their marine survival was dismal, tied for the second lowest in more than 50 years of records.

Accurately forecasting salmon returns is difficult, and DFO forecast numbers were too high for all major Fraser sockeye populations in 2007, as revealed in Fig. 12. Forecast models like the ones used for Fraser sockeye assume average survival conditions based on the historical time series. Therefore, in years when survival conditions are less than what has been observed in the past, as occurred for the salmon that returned in 2007, forecasts under-estimate observed returns. Part of the challenge is to understand the relative importance of factors occurring in fresh water versus factors operating in the ocean. The Chilko stock is the only major sockeye population in the Fraser watershed where smolts are routinely counted en route to the ocean, and hence is the only population where we can separate the role of freshwater and marine factors affecting survival. Sockeye fry numbers are estimated in various lakes using hydroacoustic equipment (sounders), but significant freshwater mortality can occur between the time fry numbers are estimated and the sockeye migrate to sea nine months later as smolts.

Sampling in the Strait of Georgia in June and September helps us understand what occurs during the early marine life of salmon. Observations of juveniles in the Strait of Georgia in 2005 indicated no problem with marine survival, suggesting normal returns in 2007. In 2005 relatively high surface ocean temperatures associated with reduced marine survivals existed, but higher temperatures in earlier years did not result in the extremely low marine survivals found for this brood year.

From the Georgia Basin, juvenile Fraser sockeye normally migrate through Johnstone Strait, Queen Charlotte Sound and northward along the continental shelf. It appears now that conditions in these waters were poor, based on low returns of sockeye and poor marine survival of seabirds near Vancouver Island.

Previous State of the Ocean Reports noted poor survival of juvenile coho and fledgling seabirds along the west coast of Vancouver Island in 2005, due to poor ocean conditions. Seabirds survival was the worst ever observed from California to Triangle Island off northern Vancouver Island. However, seabirds appeared fine north of this range in 2005, suggesting returns of sockeye in 2007 would be normal.

Indicators of ocean productivity, such as PDO and coastal sea surface temperatures, suggested reduced survivals for sockeye returning in 2007.

One analysis, reported in last year’s report, compared Chilko Lake marine survival with ocean temperature observations for the brood years 1952-2002. These suggested that increased survivals were associated with a cooler Gulf of Alaska from January to August of ocean entry year and a warmer Gulf of Alaska from November to July of the return year. Conditions for the 2007 returning populations were just the opposite and quite extreme, pointing to poor returns. However, given past unreliability of using Chilko Lake sockeye in non-dominant years as indicators of other sockeye populations, it was not clear how to use this finding.

Future forecasts will consider how to more effectively use climatic, physical and biological oceanographic data to inform quantitative return forecasts. A possible approach presents data from previous State of the Pacific Ocean reports corresponding to the 2005 and 2006 entry years in a “report card” format (Table 1). Qualitatively, all indicators for 2005 were poor (below average), and this type of information could be used to recommend the acceptance of a conservative probability forecast. The good news is that 2006 marine indicators of ocean productivity suggest that the survivals of sockeye returning in 2008 should be somewhat better than for those that returned in 2007. Unfortunately, the number of spawners in 2004 was the lowest for this cycle year, indicating that even with near average survivals, that returns will be low in 2008.

So that pretty much tells us the 2009 collapse was NOT from any state of the ocean conditions and DFO already knows that! Doesn’t take much of any investigation for that one? Plus, it pretty much spells out, it was:
NOT from Deepsea zooplankton growth in the Gulf of Alaska.
NOT from the effects of the PDO or Victoria Mode.
NOT from the effects of El Niño and La Niña. The current El Niño started in 2009.
NOT from any shortage of any food source.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/CSAS/Csas/Publications/SAR-AS/2008/SAR-AS2008_028_E.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas-sccs/Publications/ResDocs-DocRech/2008/2008_013-eng.htm
www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sci/psarc/OSRs/Ocean_SSR_e.htm

So what was it?

Now here is something I remembered reading, published by a COSEWIC COMMITTEE ON THE STATUS OF ENDANGERED WILDLIFE IN CANADA, Assessment and Status Report on the Sockeye Salmon Cultus population dated 2003. So I decided to review it again.

quote: Fraser sockeye smolts move quickly through the Fraser estuary and into the Strait of Georgia in April and May (Healey 1980). They migrate northward through Johnstone Strait by July, then northwest along the coast until late fall or winter when they begin to move offshore into the Gulf of Alaska where they rear with other sockeye stocks for about two years. The timing of the offshore movement is affected by a complex interplay of physical (temperature, salinity), biological (age, size, prey abundance) and genetic (disposition to specific migratory patterns) factors (Burgner 1991). North American sockeye utilize the area south and east of Kodiak Island, with Fraser sockeye distributed further south (to 46º N) (Burgner 1991). Their distributions, while predictable in a general way, have not been reliably linked to major oceanographic features such as circulation patterns and temperature and salinity fronts (Burgner 1991). Cultus sockeye are vulnerable to the impacts of human development during their smolt emigration and migration through near-shore coastal waters. The lower Fraser River is heavily developed as it passes through a community of over two million people: the estuary has been encroached by development and is constrained by dykes and river entrainment structures; and effluent from pulp mills and small communities is common along the coast. There is also a growing number of fish farms on the marine migratory pathway of juvenile sockeye as they move north along the coast of British Columbia. Concerns have recently been expressed regarding the potential transfer of diseases and parasites such as sea lice between salmon farms and wild populations, especially in areas of dense salmon farming (Gardner and Peterson 2003).

http://www.sararegistry.gc.ca/virtual_sara/files/cosewic/sr_cultus_sockeye_salmon_e.pdf

Hmmm… Pretty much further spells out while DFO is telling everyone sea lice aren’t effecting wild salmon – there seems to be a published report raising concerns stating otherwise, doesn’t it.

But wait… this gets better as I am trying to figure this out! As we all know, the required threshold for the treatment of sea lice with ‘SLICE’ is three (3) and we also know it requires a licensed veterinarian to prescribe that treatment – by Canadian law. Now how about this? Historically in past years treatment was not prescribed (especially during the winter months) until that threshold of three was well exceeded. I’ll just use Potts Bay as that example. In November ‘Avg Motiles’ was 8. Treatment wasn’t prescribed until December 13, 2009 when it reached twenty-three (23)! Tad bit over that three (3) number, isn’t it? I am used to seeing that.
Potts Bay
12-Nov-09 1.65 0.13 1.80 1.75 4.33 0.20 8.00 40 13107
1-Dec-09 10.70 8.15 6.65 1.30 6.45 4.20 22.55 20 13071 13-Dec-09 (23)

But, here it comes… are you ready? I am not used to seeing this? Can someone explain this one to me? I start looking at some locations and notice something out of the ordinary - not normal that I haven’t seen before. Here is what I noticed, the last numbers are the date of treatment and the number of ‘Avg Motiles’ in ( ):
Larsen
26-May-10 0.17 0.42 1.05 0.32 0.12 0.97 1.90 60 508135 1-Jun-10 (2.5)

Midsummer
18-May-10 2.55 0.63 0.52 0.30 0.35 4.71 1.85 60 427653 18-May-10 (2.5)

Glacier Falls
29-May-10 22.54 0.32 0.26 0.11 0.39 5.39 1.08 60 416715 1-Jun-10 (2)

Humphrey
28-Nov-09 0.37 0.03 0.18 0.10 0.15 0.02 0.47 60 538558 16-Nov-09 (1)

Sargeaunts Pass
14-Nov-09 0.13 0.07 0.03 0.07 0.03 0.17 0.20 60 871427 20-Nov-09 (1)
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_fish_health_broughton_area.php
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_farm_locations.php?area_id=7

So, as I am looking at these different numbers I have came up with some interesting questions and I have to find the answers:
1. What is the REAL reason DFO is not releasing any fish farm records?
2. Does DFO already know sea lice are killing wild smolts and doesn’t want that information released?
3. WHY ARE LICENSED VETERINARIANS “NOW” PRESCRIBING “SLICE” FOR FISH FARMS - BASED ON AN ‘AVG MOBILES’ OF LESS THAN “3”?
4. Who authorized that treatment outside the requirement of Canada law?
5. Why are fish farms now treating with an average as low as one (1)mobile?

If you check you will find the above are indeed on the Fraser sockeye migration route.

Sould I just make this my opinion (has to be an opinion – as no one will provide any information) that all those treatments were authorized and/or required by DFO?

Still wondering what caused the 2009 Fraser sockeye collapse and why a record year in 2010... I bet if you compare those "fish farm" records for those two years, you will find the answers? Any bets?

 

[Little Hawk]

Good post Charlie!

Alexandra and others have long suspected/implicated fish-farms impacting wild sockeye and other Pacific salmon that swim near these disease/parasite infested sewage outfalls.

And yes, DFO knows exactly what's going on and continues to turn a 'blind-eye' to this environmental holocaust.

To call this a conflict of interest would duly qualify for the understatement of the year award.

Go figure, who in their right mind would authorize solving one problem - sea lice - by creating a worse one - using Slice - in an environment so sensitive to chemical pollutants, especially something as evil as emmamectin-benzoate?

In over ten years of reading, writing about, and researching the net-pen business, still today I am of the firm opinion that our government here in Canada - on both levels (Provincial/Federal) - is colluding/conspiring with the Norwegian industry, regardless of the known environmental/ecological costs to British Columbia.

I believe this dynamic exists for perhaps 2-reasons:

1) Canadian politician's palms are being 'greased' by the industry.

2) Canadian politician's have succumbed to 'pressure' from American lobbyists' to continue the business of 'Growing fish to feed American's'.

This thing is BIG up here Charlie. Government has 'muzzled' their own staffers and field-worker's and it's hard as hell to get anything 'incriminating' towards the industry published. It's like Moscow in the good old days the way media is controlled by government.

Nearly 5000/people from all walks of life marched on the Legislature in an unprecedented rally for WILD SALMON with Alexandra Morton here in Victoria a few weeks back. The buzz-word at the rally was 'sink-the-salmon-farms!'

Do I believe this rally will bear any fruit towards getting these industrial waste-lots out of our waterways?

Nope.

I pray it doesn't take something as severe as the total collapse of our beloved and priceless Pacific salmon fishery to precipitate the end of this madness, because then, ironically, we will have no choice but to grow man-made fish.

"Some could care less if there's any fish left for our kids!"

 

[Barbender]

Ah Little Hawk your devotion to the billionaire American Empress with no clothes is admirable but lets take a look shall we.
Alexandra first said Atlantic salmon from farms would colonize all the rivers in BC. Ooops she was wrong...
So far not one river in BC has any Atlantics living in it.
She then changed tactics and said Pinks in the Broughton would be extinct by 2009 because of farms. Ooops wrong again....
2009 results in one of the largest pink returns in the Broughton resulting in commerical openings.
She then switches tactics again and says nope it is now the sockeye in the Fraser that are being killed by farms hundreds of miles away. Well guess what. Ooopps wrong againg.... 30 million return. I hope she says that farms are now killing all the springs and that by 2011 they will be extinct because if she does it pretty much means a banner year is around the corner.

 

[Little Hawk]

Barbie: Your devotion to the Norwegian's and their floating sewage/disease/parasite factories is admirable. That is, if you're a Viking fish-farmer hell-bent on messing up other peoples' waterways so you can get rich growing fish to feed American's. To survive, the industry needs a good sprinkling of local apologists' like you as much as they need greasable-politician's.

It's a shame your voice and evident passion for things that move you couldn't be aimed more so at enhancing the welfare of WILD Pacific salmon.

PS. Dr. John Volpe documented viable juvenile Atlantic salmon offspring (wild spawned) in three separate river systems on Vancouver Island a decade ago. For you (or anyone) to claim - like some sort of God - that there are no viable populations of feral Atlantic's anywhere in BC, is just plain stupid.

"Some could care less if there's any fish left for our kids!"

 

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by Barbender

Ah Little Hawk your devotion to the billionaire American Empress with no clothes is admirable but lets take a look shall we.
Alexandra first said Atlantic salmon from farms would colonize all the rivers in BC. Ooops she was wrong...
So far not one river in BC has any Atlantics living in it.

Might want to re-check that information! I believe there are several areas that Atlantics has spawned in! [:0][B)]

quote: She then changed tactics and said Pinks in the Broughton would be extinct by 2009 because of farms. Ooops wrong again....

Yep, Ooops you are wrong, again...
If the fish farms hadn't started using SLICE during the out migration of the smolts - they probably would be going or even extinct by now! [:0][B)]

quote: 2009 results in one of the largest pink returns in the Broughton resulting in commerical openings.

Yep, due to Alexandra Morton's work and getting the heat turned up on the fish farms making them monitor their use of SLICE and insuring the use during those out migrations! WOW Barbie... you aren't doing very well here, are you? [:0][B)]

quote: She then switches tactics again and says nope it is now the sockeye in the Fraser that are being killed by farms hundreds of miles away. Well guess what. Ooopps wrong againg.... 30 million return. I hope she says that farms are now killing all the springs and that by 2011 they will be extinct because if she does it pretty much means a banner year is around the corner.

I sure would like to see those hidden fish farm records {you/they refuse to disclose) – why is that? I just also wonder what kind of diseases were spread and/or transmitted by the different or lack of the use of SLICE was during the Fraser River Sockeye out migration for the years 2007 and 2008? Why isn’t that information being disclosed?

Oh... almost forgot! Congratulations’... you just got a perfect score! Four for four - all WRONG! Couldn't you have gotten just one thing right? [V] [V]

 

[Mi Chica]

It strikes me that one of the problems we face is the ability of government and it's departments such as DFO to manipulate information. It seems that they have learned from previous (totalitarian) regimes elsewhere that by witholding or suppressing information, coupled with rather large lies and delaying tactics, they can get away with almost anything. It is a sad commentary on our democratic system. If we as citizens had been more vigilant, perhaps they would have not dared to perpetrate these crimes.
Please make no mistake about it, any government or government department that knowingly uses these tactics is working against the common interest of the country and therefore committing crimes against the country. It has only been the apathy and unwillingness to believe that our elected and appointed leaders would do this sort of thing that has created any confusion over these issues. None of us want to believe that venal individuals and groups would sell out our birthright.
If our "leaders" were doing the jobs they were elected and/or appointed to do, at the very least the information needed to make rational conclusions would be readily available. 'Managing' information is not compatible with a democratic society. Keeping information out of the hands of the citizenry seems more in keeping with the concept that the citizens can not be trusted to make rational decisions than I can be comfortable with. Nor am I comfortable with the idea that foreign owned corporations can be allowed to refuse to release vital information, or break the laws of the land with impunity. Without the release of records, we must assume that they are hiding negative and possibly trends/actions/results.
It is past time that the veils of secrecy be removed and all records and studies be made available to any desiring to separate truth from fiction. Reality dictates this will not happen until huge numbers of citizens make it clear that anything less is not only not acceptable, but the 'leaders' jobs/political survival will become forfeit, and any actions that meet the definitions of criminality would be treated the same as any lawbreaker before the courts.


Too much water, too little time

 

[Mi Chica]

quote:Without the release of records, we must assume that they are hiding negative and possibly trends/actions/results.

Sorry, this should have read..
Without the release of records, we must assume that they are hiding negative and possibly criminal trends/actions/results

Too much water, too little time

 

[SpringFever552]

Charlie..can you offer answers?

do you actually KNOW what happens first hand ,on these farms? have you any "inside" info, or are you getting all your info from "documents" off the internet?

do you know they actually move whole farms(fish stocks)to other sites,to fallow those sites during out migration??

and ya , I'll take that bet...

like I said before, "IF" the farms are/were to blame for dwindling wild stocks,
dam... sounds to me like these farms are doing something rite for such a dramatic change in last few years

 

[Whole in the Water]

Your missing the point Spring Fever. You don't have to have inside info, or be involved in the fish farm business to know that it suffers from various problems such as:
- it spreads disease, pestilence and pollution (like any other concentrated animal feedlot)
- it is more interesterd in making a profit than protecting the environment (e.g. why don't the companies release ALL their reports on fish health, pollution, etc.)
- and most importantly fish farming is ultimately environmentally unsustainable as it take more biomass to feed to the farmed fish than the amount of biomass you get from the farmed fish in the end. Fish farms are mining the sea (i.e plankton, krill and bait fish) for fish feed. If this continues combined with commercial overfishing and global pollution our oceans will become even larger dead zones, devoid of most sea life as we know it.

IMO fish farms need to, (1) move on land and, (2) become sustainable by:
- stopping the spread of sea borne diseases and parasites and treat their waste products properly like other industries
- switch to species that are vegetarian (i.e. don't require fish feed) or increase the feedlot growth times to allow the fish to grow at a more natural rate, requiring less fish feed over time.

You don't have to work inside the tobacco industry to know it is bad for human health. You don't have to work inside the forest industry to know that they have practised (and some still do) environmentally destructive practices. You didn't have to work inside the eastern cod fishery to know that what the industry and the govt. were doing was the wrong thing that led to the total collapse of the fishery. It takes people like Morton, Suzuki, Little Hawk and Charlie to exercise their right to question and protest that have in the past and will continue to keep short-sighted, profit-seekers from destroying our natural resources. That's my 2 bits.


Long live wild salmon!!!
>&lt)))>

 

[SpringFever552]

acutally I don't think I am missing the point...

I'm just tring to say, "get all info first", before pointing fingers,at one single reason/industry for the dwindling wild fish stocks

I believe any report can can be manipulated, depending on who's doing the study, to read the outcome you'd like, putting blame on one thing or another..

yes I've said that also regarding smoking,doctors at one time recomending them[:0], man even believing at one time in history the earth was flat... and I'm not trying to be smarta#$ or anything like that here..

think about it for a minute, and what you do in your everyday life, and maybe what you did in your working career, I'm sure every single one of us have/or are doing things that "might" be harmful to one thing or another...do you drive a car/boat,oil and gas industry,auto industry,logging, land based farming,ranching,hydro dams,yada yada yada,,we could go on for ever here, its every thing we do thats all adding up here....there are so many smoking guns around, some larger than others...

But yes I do agree with you ,to error on the side of caution,the Government should be mandating that the fish farms be placed on to land, but this I believe is only one very small piece of the puzzle, but it would be a very welcome start in my honest opinion...

and Charlie please keep up your "research"....

 

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by SpringFever552

SpringFever,
You are probably one of the most sincere individuals walking on the face of the earth, but boy this really is starting to sound like Déjà vu! First not suggesting anything other than you are a great guy and just happened to post something that sent up a "red flag" to me... and this is, just my feelings, nothing more! And, am NOT suggesting anything, just stating my feelings!

I personally am a little leery of anyone that jumps in and immediately makes an unsolicited comment(s) or statement(s) of the following nature. Again, I am not insinuating anything just stating my feeling, nothing more – nothing less!

quote: I don't work for DFO so I can't offer answers to all your questions, but I do have information(NO I don't work or ever did for a fish farm), it is "inside" info on fish farms, regarding the use of slice, and sea lice, and you are way off with your insinuation that sea lice is rampant,with slice being used with almost every day/ week/ month feedings... its not..., info I have is that slice is NOT used on a regular basis,it has not been used/fed,in the 18mths on the farms that I have info on when my source was working.....

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16139&whichpage=5

Why does it make me leery, you ask? Read the following: Posted - 03/16/2008:

quote:I have my viewpoint, and was willing to discuss it here. Youy all seem so convinced that I am a pro industry hack or work on a farm in the Broughton, I am neither. Just a guy interested in the debate, and I was hoping to interject some alternate viewpoints, and in turn gain some insight myself. Unfortunately this is not the case. We could go on playing dueling scientists, but that would be futile. The mods should close this thread.

PS for what it's worth, I have some friends who do work in the industry, and they are just as frustrated with the anti farm lobby as you Agent are with industry, and for the same reasons.

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8228&whichpage=20

Then to have this response posted: Posted - 06/04/2010:

quote: I have no problem with closed containment. I have managed 4 different CC sites. 2 in saltwater, 1 in freshwater and 1 recirculation site. An industry wide switch to CC would place people with these skills in great demand. I just don't see the switch happening very quickly because of the large amounts of capital $$$ that would be required. In addition this new BC CC based industry would have to compete against a net pen industry in the rest of the world, and I do not think that it would get enough of a price increase to do so. Most people do not make moralistic or ethical decisions when they are shopping. Hence the popularity of WalMart. So basically I see the demand for CC in BC as basically the closing of the industry and unemployment for thousands. In addition, I do not believe that the decreasing populations of wild salmon can be blamed entirely on fish farms. There are too many other factors at play that if all the farms were removed tomorrow, you will still see the current decline continue.

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=72

I have never brought this up before, but… So, after two years how does one, all of a sudden go from not having nothing/anything to do with the industry, to becoming an expert in aquaculture, with years experience managing “fish farms”?

Again, this is just my opinion! But, after two years and then getting that statement did not add, but actually took away ALL credibility, in my eyes? To me that is just another case of what extent the aquaculture industry will go, to try to manipulate and mislead the general public… only give the public, what WE want them to know?

quote: Charlie..can you offer answers?

I would be glad to answer any and all questions and offer any answers I can! Fire away!

quote: do you actually KNOW what happens first hand ,on these farms? have you any "inside" info, …

Yes, and no! I have never ever set foot on a fish farm – and I have NO desire and NO plans to ever do so!

Absolutely NO “inside” information, as I happen to be one of the individuals that has requested information from ‘Marine Harvest Canada’ and ‘Marine Harvest Norway’ and was FLAT OUT told “NO”!

quote: do you know they actually move whole farms(fish stocks)to other sites,to fallow those sites during out migration??

Yes I do! Why would they do that or even think of doing that if disease and sea lice were not a problem?

quote: …or are you getting all your info from "documents" off the internet?

I very much obtain my information from the internet! But, if you note my posts, you will find I stay away from “news articles”, “trade articles”, and all the “crap” generated by both sides of this issue. You might want to review my posts here:
http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=56
http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=57
http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=58

When I make a comment – not always but mostly provide links to my information. If you check those links, you will find most are like the following (note- where those links go)!

I hope you take the time to read these?
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/CSAS/Csas/Publications/SAR-AS/2008/SAR-AS2008_028_E.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas-sccs/Publications/ResDocs-DocRech/2008/2008_013-eng.htm
www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sci/psarc/OSRs/Ocean_SSR_e.htm
http://www.sararegistry.gc.ca/virtual_sara/files/cosewic/sr_cultus_sockeye_salmon_e.pdf
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_fish_health_broughton_area.php
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_farm_locations.php?area_id=7
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/
http://wfrc.usgs.gov/research/fish health/IHNVreflibintro.htm
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/SCI/psarc/SSRs/Salmon/d6-10.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/2003/SSR2003_047_e.pdf
http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/SCBC_sockeye_review.pdf
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/princerupert/story.html?id=38b6509f-cc60-46c8-abf5-bb6b4f5963ac
http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/geninfo/finfish/salmon/catchval/blusheet/08exvesl.php
http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm53/tm53.pdf
http://www.npafc.org/new/publications/Technical%20Report/TR5/page%2065-66(Welch).pdf

quote: and ya , I'll take that bet...

like I said before, "IF" the farms are/were to blame for dwindling wild stocks,
dam... sounds to me like these farms are doing something rite for such a dramatic change in last few years

Think about that for awhile? You really need to look at the recent results you are speaking of and the history of some companies you are dealing with?

Yes, there has been a “band-aid” put on due to public pressure and the likes of Alexandra Morton! Without that continuing – YOUR PACIFIC SALMON DO “NOT” HAVE A CHANCE! And yes, there is a possibility after 20 million years fighting Mother Nature – WE will accomplish something nature couldn’t – WE will KILL them off and they will go EXTINCT!

I wouldn’t take that bet – until all the requested information is provided. While the jury is still out, due to the stall tactics and that lack of information, DFO cannot continue to play that “shell game” forever! Only question – will there be any British Columbia “wild” pacific salmon left to save?

 

[Whole in the Water]

Excellent, well thought out repsonse Charlie, I think you hit many nails on the head with this reply. Good on ya!

Long live wild salmon!!!
>&lt)))>

 

[Mi Chica]

I would hope that all would take some time and follow the references you have provided. Facts, and informed opinions are so much more imprtessive than blind trust and/or third hand I knew a guy who knew a guy. You have done much spade work for those of us who have very limited time for research, so...Thank you Charlie

Too much water, too little time

 

[Mi Chica]

I would hope that all would take some time and follow the references you have provided. Facts, and informed opinions are so much more imprtessive than blind trust and/or third hand I knew a guy who knew a guy. You have done much spade work for those of us who have very limited time for research, so...Thank you Charlie

Too much water, too little time

 

[Barbender]

I can give you a lot of reasons why Charlie, and Little Hawk are wrong. 30 million reasons actually. ha ha ha ha ha.....

 

[Whole in the Water]

Ahhh... sad just like Springfever you too Barbender are missing the point and the big picture. But hey, I think we understand that you feel you need to defend and protect your fish feedlot industry to the very end. Just like many other environmentally harmful and/or deceitful industries in various parts of the world (e.g. tobacco, whaling, chemical, commercial fishing, industrial agriculture, forestry, mining, nuclear power, waste management, etc.) have done over the last century or so.

The reality is that your industry will be made to eventually reduce it's harmful impact as the concerned public keeps the pressure up - and then you may have to eat some "crow" with your farmed feedlot fish.

Long live wild salmon!!!
>&lt)))>

 

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by Barbender

I can give you a lot of reasons why Charlie, and Little Hawk are wrong. 30 million reasons actually. ha ha ha ha ha.....

I hate it when people just post and run! But, Barbender – this makes YOU, five-for-five, wrong answers! And, there is NO REASON to go “ ha ha ha ha ha.....” even if you were right, but you are NOT!

There is NOTHING – NO CONDITIONS (ocean or otherwise) from the mouth of the Fraser to their feeding grounds around the 46th Parallel that was different between the 2010 and 2009 Fraser River sockeye returns, except the “possibility” (it has to be and can only be a “possibility" – as NO ONE will provide any information) that the 2009 outgoing Fraser River sockeye was exposed and “died” or were at lest infected with disease(s) BEFORE they got to their feeding area, resulting in their "death"! IMO and to the best of my limited knowledge, - BY FISH FARMS! Would love for you to provide any verifiable information to prove me wrong - Can't do it can you?

So, since both FishFever552 and you seem to have all this “insider” information, why don’t either start sharing and post some verifiable information and responses – rather than just the continueous slamming of others, who are just asking for information and verification? I personally would love the answers to these questions:

1. Why was there a “CULLING” of $7 million NOK worth of Atlantic smolts by Marine Harvest in 2007 (during the 2009 Fraser sockeye out-migration? That sounds like a whole lot of Atlantic smolts, which must of had something awfully bad (maybe disease?) to have to kill them!

2. How many dead Atlantic salmon were actually being collected by diver(s), when the diver drowned at the Marine Harvest fish farm, on 12 September 2007 In British Colombia, Canada? Must have been a lot of Atlantic salmon that “died” to hire someone(s) to come in and clean them up.

3. What did those Atlantic salmon actually “die” from - in 2007, during the 2009 sockeye out-migration?

4. Would, whatever they died from be bad enough that, that is why they don’t want to release the information or those records?

5. Would, what they died from, be due to the “very” long ongoing problems with the parasite Kudoa thyrsites? Or, was it another “disease”… Say, one serious or heavy enough to “WIPEOUT” - AN ENTIRE 2007 FRASER RIVER OUTGOING SOCKEYE SMOLT POPULATION?

6. Why did DFO just recently provide funding for the research and “to validate and test an injectible sea lice vaccine for the prevention of the parasites in salmonid aquaculture,” in British Columbia?

Just some questions to help clarify things for us asking questions, as they (the Atlantic fish farm industry) seem to have chosen NOT to release or any or all provible information and then for them... to just keep stating - "that has not been proven by any research", is getting very old! Their disease information – is NOT ALL PROPIETORY? Especially when Marine Harvest actually includes a "lot" of it in their Annual Reports - give me a break!

You don't think they have any “sea lice” or “disease” problems anywhere that harms wild salmon... might want to look at that those Annual Reports again? They don't have any problems, except “everywhere” in the whole world! One neat thing, when you are dealing with publicly traded company, they have to file “Annual Reports” and explain things, like the reason for their losses, to shareholders! You might want to start checking those losses published in the Annual Reports – might learn something!

Let’s put this in perspective in another way – just for you? First if you ask, I do have proof of this information! Proof they culled those smolts. Proof they have and are fighting a long time Kudoa thrysites parasit problem, along with proof there is no cure and no vaccine. Proof that parasite thrives in/around “netpens”. Proof it can be and IS transmitted to ALL WILD SALMON populations. Proof “netpens” transmit that disease to wild smolts (AND NO PROOF, YET – a heavy outbreak, can't or couldn’t kill the entire wild salmon smolts infected by those netpens) Proof of other environmental damages. Proof they consider the survival of “THEIR” fish over any environment, which includes wild salmon. Proof they are responsible for the ISA outbreak in Chile. Proof they had to, and decided to shut down “ALL” Atlantic salmon fish farms in the United States - their biggest market in North America). Proof of a LOT of other things and issues around the world... and PROOF they won’t release any records to pertaining to any information in Brithish Columbia. You do know that just might involve them in the 2009 Fraser River sockeye collapse – which by the way, if they were found and held responsible – COULD/WOULD PROBABLY BANKRUPT THEM! Hmmm… I just might have to go “ ha ha ha ha ha.....” on that one!

Now let’s look at the “PROOF” your Atlantic aquaculture industry (fish farms) in British Columbia are willing to provide, in regards to “their” known effects not only concerning the 2009 Fraser River sockeye collapse, but ALL “wild” salmon stocks? Here is the entire list of the information they are willing to provide and PROVE!

1. THAT INFORMATION IS "PROPIETORY" and we are REFUSING TO RELEASE ANY AND “ALL” OF OUR RECORDS!

2. If Canada discloses any information, we will STOP providing any and all further information - not required by law!

Yea, Barbie – you might want to really start thinking “closed containment” or maybe start looking for another job – as this “shell game” cannot continue forever! It really is time Canada steps up and releases the information to the public and let everyone know what is really going on – one way, or the other! Hmmm... you might want to also do some research as why Marine Harvest really doesn't have anymore "fish farms" in the U.S.?

BTW… they do also practice the use of “CULLING” smolts as one way to control ISA outbreaks, “This is the first outbreak of ISA on Atlantic salmon in Chile. To get control over the situation extraordinary and tough measures were required and actions have been taken. Consequently, Marine Harvest reported write-down’s in Chile of more than NOK 500 million for the second half of 2007, of which more than NOK 400 million was related to culling of small fish.”

 

[Little Hawk]

Another great and informative post by our Yankee Bro!

Charlie, I've been butting heads with Barbie for about 3/yrs now.
Save your breath man, he's an industry apologist same as the rest who defend it and do what they can to foster doubt & confusion amongst a sea of misinformed and apathetic Canucks.

Closed containment is inevitable.

"Some could care less if there's any fish left for our kids!"

 

[Mi Chica]

Little Hawk, your comment that closed containment is inevitable is probably correct. The problem is that if more pressure is not exerted soon, it may be too late to do our wild salmon any good. Therefore we rely on folks like you and Charlie to keep up the good work and the rest of us will encourage and assist as best we are able. Sooner or later enough Canadians will become angry enough to force the crats to move to expose the (suppressed records, reports, studies) truth and protect our native marine species.
If each of us let the stores know that we will not tolerate their support (selling farmed product)of open net operations, and let our neighbours know what we are doing and why, I believe that this groundswell of outrage will peak much more quickly.
As far as reasoning with individuals who blindly support open net operations, there are only two possibilities. If they either refuse or are unable to provide real information, and can only parrot propaganda, pointing out the facts will not only discredit them, but provide the answers to deal with the other possibility. Those who spout support without being aware of the realities may become agitated enough to look at the problem more critically. These individuals would then likely join the ranks of those demanding constructive change. Huge numbers of people view these posts, learning why this is such an issue, and that the propaganda they have been exposed to bears little connection with reality. No one likes to realize they have been duped, and many will become enraged as they learn despite the veils of secrecy and obstruction that has hindered efforts to protect and enhance the wild marine species that we rely on.

Too much water, too little time

 

[SpringFever552]

Hi Charlie,thanks? for the comments a few posts back..

I did not post and run, well maybe,been fishing up North of Campbell River and killed some of those, what I've heard now could total 45,000,000[?] Sockeye, and then to Quatsino,and killed some more "wild" feeder Springs(kings)off shore,"wild" Coho(silvers)up the sound, and did some crabing which I am cooking as I type...ok now I'm being a smart a@#

I took the bet because ,and its just me thinking this here, that the farms are not the sole reason for the collaps of the 2009 run, yes I could,and might be wrong, but its just my thoughts...

I do hope,as a person who loves to fish,that the reasons will be found/or made public so things can change before its to late...

in your last post you comment on "our" fish farms?,..I'm guessing that you are refering to "farms up here in Canada"?,

as I said, I do NOT work for any of them, I do work for(PROUDLY SO),a 100% CANADIAN company and have so for 20yrs now, as a driver and in the last few yrs moved inside as a relief man,machine opperator..Got Milk?..

I can offer part of an answer to question # 2 for you Charlie, there's divers going to these farms on a regular schedule for, checking their nets,checking for morts, checking anchors,and such...not uncommon...

my source... I do know some GREAT people in the fish farm industry...I have visited them a number of times at their work site, NO I'm no expert,


Mi Chica,
sounds like your Canadian also,you need to tell(with your vote) your MLA, or MP,
if you want change complaining at the local store might work,but,and I'm only guessing here, most these fish are going south to the GOOD OLE USA...and else where...IMHO,there will always be a market somewhere in the world for them



Cheers....