Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Yes we all have personal beliefs that vary. Thanks for the discussion. Please do not take offence to mine.
Herring staging on the east coast of the Rock
- Thread starter Cuba Libre
- Start date
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
You’re right, sportfishing isn’t much of an option anymore. It’s facing the exact same reality as commercial fishing. I had always wanted to start my own charter company such as you have but realized it’s an uncertain future and found employment elsewhere.
The herring fishery is short term employment for a relatively small group of people with a long term cost to the environment and a large group of people. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on it.
Land based salmon farming is the obvious alternative to what you just posted. It’s not financially feasible with the open pen alternative but the market will still be there and they will find a way to make it work if forced. That’s a different topic I don’t want to derail this thread to Fish farms.
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fish4all
Well-Known Member
Well as stated that is your opinion. I’m on the water for the last 4 days running up and down the straight and I can tell you there is far more than 120,000 tons in the gulf. The test boats found that in 2 days without even looking hard. The harvest is far below 20% and the value is far higher than $500. So if you are going to argue, argue facts and not what you “personally believe”.
california
Well-Known Member
From 2017, I havent seen for 2018. This is where i get the 20%nfrom a DFO representative. You personally figured out how much stock there is? Sounds like YOUR opinion.
Brenda Spence, resource manager with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, monitored the fishery aboard the 19-metre Canadian Coast Guard vessel, Neocaligus. “Stocks are really healthy this year,” she said. “The forecast is for near-historic highs.”
Gillnetters are expected to harvest 13,763 tonnes while the seine fleet takes 11,805 tonnes in the Strait of Georgia. Combined, that is 8,025 tonnes more than last year. Spence said the maximum harvest rate is 20 per cent of the projected number of spawners.
And from a 2016 Article in Times colonist:
Bill Forbes, of Lasqueti Fishing Co. Ltd., said from Nanoose that plants are paying about $300 per ton, with a possibility of an additional $50 per ton down the road, for seine-caught herring. Gillnetters are commanding about $500 per ton because they can adjust the size of their nets to target larger fish.
And from a 2017 Vancouver sun article that supports the 2016 one:
And while the Japanese aren’t paying what they did for the roe in the late 1970s to the late 1990s — prices to fishermen have dropped from a high of about $5,000 per tonne to several hundred dollars — the fishery helps to maintain the infrastructure of the industry, including its processing facilities.
SO the take of up to 20% and $300-$500 per ton are my opinion? Maybe you should take your own advice.
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
Some good points. The $200-300 off the boat was a quote from last years season. When the dust settles at the end of the year what do you think you will be getting for a total price per ton?
The 20% harvest rate is directly in DFOs management plan for this fishery and how they allocate quota. It isn’t a personal belief. With 29,000 tons out of the Salish sea this year that assumes a 145,000 ton biomass at a 20% harvest rate.
Is it just your opinion that there is far more than 120,000 tons in the gulf or can you point us to some posted data to check out. Where are the facts to support a value far higher than $500.00 per ton so we can reference? Thanks for the info and I would like to point out in California they cap the take at up to 5% of the spawners based on data and precautionary principle.
california
Well-Known Member
And just in case you think the DFO rep talking about Historic abundance means pre-fishing, it does not. The quote from the article makes it clear what she (Brenda Spence) means by "historic" abundance in 2017.
“Stocks in the strait are robust,” and similar to last year, Spence said. They are at levels seen in the early 2000s. She also said the quality is higher this year.
So the stocks are at levels seen during a time when they were actively and heavily fished, but just not yet decimated. The stocks in the Strait of Georgia need to be left alone and not have 20% removed to attempt to restore them to REAL historic abundance, and perhaps make a start in restoring the ecology of the strait with its most important prey species.
“Stocks in the strait are robust,” and similar to last year, Spence said. They are at levels seen in the early 2000s. She also said the quality is higher this year.
So the stocks are at levels seen during a time when they were actively and heavily fished, but just not yet decimated. The stocks in the Strait of Georgia need to be left alone and not have 20% removed to attempt to restore them to REAL historic abundance, and perhaps make a start in restoring the ecology of the strait with its most important prey species.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
California.
Do you think herring stock abundancies in the straight were consistent pre fishing? If so how is it that other forage species that are not fished vary so much?
Do you think herring stock abundancies in the straight were consistent pre fishing? If so how is it that other forage species that are not fished vary so much?
fish4all
Well-Known Member
Nope not my opinion fact. And a touch of my own input from doing this for 25yrs.
ROE HERRING INFORMATION BULLETIN: 07
DATE: Mar 1, 2018 PM
STRAIT OF GEORGIA
AREA 14
Shelter Pt to Cape Lazo-------Mar 1: assessing tons
E.C. Denman Island------------Mar 1: 700 tons
TEST: Feb 27 on 1,000 tons Outside White Spit: 8.6%;19.7cm;52m:47f;38-4-5-0-1
(22.8g:99.7g)
Lambert Ch. to Chrome Is------Feb 27:87,500 tons
Test: Feb 28, 1.4 miles east of Chrome Island: 5.1%;19.3cm;77m:51f;25-4-21-0-3
(20.8g:76.4g)
E.C. Hornby Is----------------Feb 26: Small school
Tribune Bay/Lower Hornby------Feb 22: 4,000 tons
Upper Baynes Sd---------------Mar 1: 300 tons
Lower Baynes Sd---------------Mar 1: 800 tons
Mapleguard to Nile Cr---------Feb 25: 4,000 tons
Nile Creek to French Cr-------Feb 25: 7,000 tons
Test: Feb 27 on 4,000 tons 2.2 miles north of Qualicum Beach:
1.8%;18.7cm;62m:72f;10-18-44-0-0; (17.3g:74.8g)
French Cr to NW Bay-----------Feb 25: 1,300 tons
Total 14: 110,250 tons
That is after 3 days of assessing and they have not assessed north or east of Lazo
Last year gross sales price for good quality herring $2800.
The goal is not to reach historical levels it’s to find balance. The stock is stable and larger than last year so one could conclude that removals last year are scientifically defensible. This year the quota is a little less.
Also there is a significant portion of the year classes (gear size is for older herring) that are caught that would die from natural mortality so the impact is again less.
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california
Well-Known Member
I'm sure they did vary with oceanic condition, there is always fluctuations as you mention. There have been times when 200,000 Tons in reduction fisheries were taken followed by severe declines. Its hard to link those to natural bariation. Currently regardless of the fluctuations, we scoop out 20% of whatever biomass is estimated to show up. I guess it can be argued if it is the right amount. Canadian fish managers don't have great track records of allowing sustainable percentages of catch on either coast. The State of California caps the San Francisco bay catch at 5% of the estimated run, they believe that is a sustainable catch level. With close to 100 years of fishing these stocks at various levels, we (speaking of fisheries managers) don't even know what the natural or true historic levels of herring is in the straight. IMO I don't think its unreasonable to lay of the herring and let it rebound to whatever level that is (with fluctuations) for a period of time and then mange it more like the State of California.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I am also curious of you take in the coastal collapse in starfish and blue mussels in 2013-14. What do you think happend there? Do feel this could possibly be effecting herring and salmon in the Georgia straight?
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
None of it matters unless you guys plan to start whaleing up again.
Humpback whale populations have been and are currently increasing at a pretty good rate.
In order to allow the increase we can’t be taking out any forage fish period.
There’s people in Alaska asking to start whaling back up. Seriously
Humpback whale populations have been and are currently increasing at a pretty good rate.
In order to allow the increase we can’t be taking out any forage fish period.
There’s people in Alaska asking to start whaling back up. Seriously
Charter Tofino
Well-Known Member
Fish4all what is the average price boats will receive per ton, including seine caught fish?
When you say jimmy pays his boats $300 per ton do you mean he pays that to boats fishing his quota?
I understand your argument for balance instead of historical highs but this can’t be viewed in the same light as every other fishery. There are too many species reliant on herring that currently need every bit of help they can get. This isn’t a fix all, it’s a small step in a long ladder of issues.
When you say jimmy pays his boats $300 per ton do you mean he pays that to boats fishing his quota?
I understand your argument for balance instead of historical highs but this can’t be viewed in the same light as every other fishery. There are too many species reliant on herring that currently need every bit of help they can get. This isn’t a fix all, it’s a small step in a long ladder of issues.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
If whale populations are increasing would that not insinuate there is enough food?
california
Well-Known Member
From the 2017 PHIFMP
Section 2.2
At this time, there is no information available on the appropriate conservation limits for herring
based on ecosystem considerations. It is recognized that herring plays a critical role in the
ecosystem and are a food source for a variety of species. The current maximum harvest rate of
20% under the herring management framework is believed to be conservative
—most juveniles
and a significant proportion of the adult population should remain available to support ecosystem
processes. Recent research indicates that the interplay of food supply and predation impacts on
herring survival and production is complex and not readily predictable (Schweigert et al. 2010).
Research is ongoing to better understand these ecosystem processes and the role herring plays in
maintaining the integrity and functioning of the ecosystem
So they admit they don't really know what appropriate conservation limits are, and the interplay with predators and the impact on the ecosystem isn't really known either. They do know however herring are critical, and still allow up to 20% to be taken without any good science on why.
Section 2.2
At this time, there is no information available on the appropriate conservation limits for herring
based on ecosystem considerations. It is recognized that herring plays a critical role in the
ecosystem and are a food source for a variety of species. The current maximum harvest rate of
20% under the herring management framework is believed to be conservative
—most juveniles
and a significant proportion of the adult population should remain available to support ecosystem
processes. Recent research indicates that the interplay of food supply and predation impacts on
herring survival and production is complex and not readily predictable (Schweigert et al. 2010).
Research is ongoing to better understand these ecosystem processes and the role herring plays in
maintaining the integrity and functioning of the ecosystem
So they admit they don't really know what appropriate conservation limits are, and the interplay with predators and the impact on the ecosystem isn't really known either. They do know however herring are critical, and still allow up to 20% to be taken without any good science on why.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
$300 is what jimmy pays the seine boats he controls. This years price has not been negotiated so it’s not known. It looks like there will be quota left in the water, the Canadian dollar is weaker so until August we are not sure.
I fully agree our salmon needs help. Herring have been harvested for a lot longer than the declines we are seeing in salmon.
hali hunter
Member
How do you figure quota will be left in the water? Gillnetters are close to filling their quota and the seine boats just opened.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
Because the seines have not found the quality they want and it’s getting late.
california
Well-Known Member
And salmon, and rockfish, and lings, and well, pretty much anything that eats herring eggs, larvae, juveniles or adults, or eats anything that depends on the herring (SRKW)!
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