scott craven
Well-Known Member
Very doubtful, keep in mind a released fish at least has a chance of survival,
nets are not quite as forgiving.
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update from DFO on the Fraser River 5-2 Chinook Run's
- Thread starter N2013
- Start date
Very doubtful, keep in mind a released fish at least has a chance of survival,
nets are not quite as forgiving.
T
The Jackel
Guest
Dam good idea right there no need for treble hooks!!!
Peahead
Well-Known Member
I'd have to disagree on how much better you think fish survival would be without treble use. The use of a typical size treble in tandem with a trailing single for a typical anchovy set up when releasing fish of substantial size I'd think would be no big issue with survival. Especially when talking about releasing over 85cm (above the slot size for those 5(2) ). For young small undersize and shakers I'd agree that trebles are likely worse and why it is often recommended that when there are lot of undersize and shakers around to put trebles away. Also my understanding that the use of barbless hooks is more important because it allows us to release fish more easily (and therefore more quickly so hence less harm) There has been the argument that larger single hooks (siwash for eg.) while holding well, often can do damage to the eye of a fish as the hook point comes back out from inside mouth. I have not seen recent research on the topic but I do recall some DFO guys doing some research with trebles vs singles many years ago when barbless rule came in and at that time found no evidence to prove trebles were any worse as long as they were barbless hooks. Improving fish release techniques seemed to be the emphasis as some guys will just kill fish with lousy handling methods no matter what hook they use!
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Why is it that people want more restrictions on top of what we have already?
WE ARE NOT BANNING TREBLE HOOKS. That is all we need is another restriction. What is next minimum boat size and motor? As for saying 15% mortality on hook please show me the scientific study done in 19/20 that say we are damaging fish more than a net.
WE ARE NOT BANNING TREBLE HOOKS. That is all we need is another restriction. What is next minimum boat size and motor? As for saying 15% mortality on hook please show me the scientific study done in 19/20 that say we are damaging fish more than a net.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
" Given the popularity of bait/treble hooks in the greater Sooke/Victoria area, mortality of released fish is at least 15% "
If release mortality is in fact at 15% in Sooke/Victoria your point is that because bait with treble hook is popular there, that this is why mortality is 15% ? Not disputing it could be 15% but the 15% has little to do with hook type.
If release mortality is in fact at 15% in Sooke/Victoria your point is that because bait with treble hook is popular there, that this is why mortality is 15% ? Not disputing it could be 15% but the 15% has little to do with hook type.
Ericl, with all due respect. You are out to lunch if you think the sports guys do more damage on these stocks.
Cheam band alone has probably taken 1000 fish so far. I know 2 members from a group a little upriver and they have taken almost 500 fish so far themselves. If you think 1100 is the number actually taken you are misinformed, clueless or have zero knowledge of the fishery or the FN doing the fishery. Ignorance is bliss...
I get it is probably hard to understand what is going on in the Fraser when you are from Washington...
Cheam band alone has probably taken 1000 fish so far. I know 2 members from a group a little upriver and they have taken almost 500 fish so far themselves. If you think 1100 is the number actually taken you are misinformed, clueless or have zero knowledge of the fishery or the FN doing the fishery. Ignorance is bliss...
I get it is probably hard to understand what is going on in the Fraser when you are from Washington...
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Mortality comes from USA/DFO studies - accept the numbers or disprove them. I used trebles for 40 years including lot's of Chovies. I have put a Siwash thru an eye as well. My experience is that Siwash are generally not a problem with injury while trebles are generally a problem with injury. Also the good mortality studies try to assess the fish several days after catch from scale loss/infection & other "release" issues. Right now in WA it is illegal to take the fish out of the water. Netting/handling the fish is a potential cause of infection. No disrespect, but the feds know more than the fishers on this one.
Whitebuck, it appears you missed the operative word "could" in caps btw in reference to sporties killing more fish than the nets. Numbers of fish killed by nets are documented; numbers of fish killed by sporties is not. Feel free to educate me on "what is happening on the Fraser".
Well all-in not as bad as I expected. To those who have zero interest in being part of the solution, you continue to be part of the problem. The longer there is a problem the longer the restrictions will last.
BTW where all are the thanks to me for all our fin-clipped fish you catch. !@#$%^&
Whitebuck, it appears you missed the operative word "could" in caps btw in reference to sporties killing more fish than the nets. Numbers of fish killed by nets are documented; numbers of fish killed by sporties is not. Feel free to educate me on "what is happening on the Fraser".
Well all-in not as bad as I expected. To those who have zero interest in being part of the solution, you continue to be part of the problem. The longer there is a problem the longer the restrictions will last.
BTW where all are the thanks to me for all our fin-clipped fish you catch. !@#$%^&
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Omg
What is happening on the Fraser? The most valuable species on the commercial market are disappearing that is what is happening. Sockeye the most valuable gone first, now that they are not viable anymore hmmmm whats next on the list...Chinook. Can't blame legit commercial fishermen they don't have any openings ...can't blame sporties...they have to release them....hmmm who left still fishing? 23rd of June and not 1 fish above teenager size up to the side of my boat...who would have believed!!!! And that group still blames us. Today was the first day I caught 2 of what I would call typical June fish for Sooke. Short and small head but only 11 and 9 pound jacks. I'll finish this with something that a guy I can't stand would say in one of his tweets. Sad.
T
The Jackel
Guest
Boy i got you sportsdraggers knickers in a knot. Having watch the way that people release fish, double treble hooks, faces of the fish all ripped to pieces, seems a single hook would do less damage. Think of all the shakers that you all catch and they are torn to bits, those shakers are tomorrows big fish. Whats a matter boys you think you still can't catch fish if you don't have 6 sharp points sticking out of a 4 inch chovey
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Boy i got you sportsdraggers knickers in a knot. Having watch the way that people release fish, double treble hooks, faces of the fish all ripped to pieces, seems a single hook would do less damage. Think of all the shakers that you all catch and they are torn to bits, those shakers are tomorrows big fish. Whats a matter boys you think you still can't catch fish if you don't have 6 sharp points sticking out of a 4 inch chovey
And another thread gets off topic. I am not bothering have a good day man. Your single hooks do same damage. Maybe have a read above at those reports.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
Jackel, I think the live bait moochers might be shakin in their boots more ! lol -- Anyway this is turning into a treble/single thread and originally it was not, so in respect to the original poster this will be my final post here on treble hooks.
First of all, just because I beleive trebles are acceptable doesn't mean I am a staunch user. 90% of my catching and catching & releasing since January this year and till now has been with single hooks - spoons/hootchies. I just don't agree with any rule unless I see logic or a benefit to it, especially when fishers being careless with fish may have caused a reg. I did point out the 'shakers' risk when using trebles in my earlier post so won't repeat. Personally I have never used x2 trebles in tandem except years ago mooching so I can't comment on that set up trolling. As I said earlier there are ways to avoid shakers. Having barbless hooks is important for releasing and why that rule has been in place for many years. I will remind that my post earlier was about releasing over slot size chinook because the thread is about releasing over slot size to allow them to reach the river. Your comment "Having watched the way that people release fish" means you do see what I was talking about . Educate one's self on how to do a safe and proper release and you've done a ton more than playing with treble hook regs. I guess if you beleive the tool (weapon) does the killing and the fisher has little to do with it, I have nothing more to say except to ask , does the gun or knife kill ? ....or the people using them? The only single hook reg that I know of in my area is in place very close to shore in the shallow river mouth in an attempt to curtail purposeful snagging by shore casters - casting out massive treble snag hooks. Larger singles are also banned there too though so even when trying to cut out snagging, a larger single is included in the ban.
First of all, just because I beleive trebles are acceptable doesn't mean I am a staunch user. 90% of my catching and catching & releasing since January this year and till now has been with single hooks - spoons/hootchies. I just don't agree with any rule unless I see logic or a benefit to it, especially when fishers being careless with fish may have caused a reg. I did point out the 'shakers' risk when using trebles in my earlier post so won't repeat. Personally I have never used x2 trebles in tandem except years ago mooching so I can't comment on that set up trolling. As I said earlier there are ways to avoid shakers. Having barbless hooks is important for releasing and why that rule has been in place for many years. I will remind that my post earlier was about releasing over slot size chinook because the thread is about releasing over slot size to allow them to reach the river. Your comment "Having watched the way that people release fish" means you do see what I was talking about . Educate one's self on how to do a safe and proper release and you've done a ton more than playing with treble hook regs. I guess if you beleive the tool (weapon) does the killing and the fisher has little to do with it, I have nothing more to say except to ask , does the gun or knife kill ? ....or the people using them? The only single hook reg that I know of in my area is in place very close to shore in the shallow river mouth in an attempt to curtail purposeful snagging by shore casters - casting out massive treble snag hooks. Larger singles are also banned there too though so even when trying to cut out snagging, a larger single is included in the ban.
T
The Jackel
Guest
Ok man
Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
If anyone believes the DFO data on the numbers of salmon netted on the lower Fraser as accurate and worth basing sound management decisions on then they are sadly misinformed. There is little, if any, auditing and enforcement of the number of salmon netted on the Fraser as there is little political will to do so. As we all know enforcement of most salmon harvesting regs. along the whole coast suffers from a lack staff and resources. However, this problem is greatly amplified by the lack of political will on the part of every political party to properly manage salmon net harvesting levels for sustainable conservation purposes.
IMHO the solution is not to keep fighting over the ever decreasing number of salmon - everyone loses in this scenario. Rather lets put more salmon in the water with a new hatchery on the Fraser (this should generate some interesting dialogue!).
While this takes place we need to do much more work to protect the Fraser River watershed regarding the problems caused by industrial pollution and agricultural run-off, negative logging and mining impacts, growing water withdrawals, increasing water temperatures and on-going loss of habitat.
Fighting over what resource group takes more fish than the others is a waste of time, meanwhile each year the chinook numbers continue to decline. Bottom line - If we want more salmon in the Fraser, then we need to stop fighting each other and start getting serious about working together to help the river produce more salmon. My 2 bits.
IMHO the solution is not to keep fighting over the ever decreasing number of salmon - everyone loses in this scenario. Rather lets put more salmon in the water with a new hatchery on the Fraser (this should generate some interesting dialogue!).
While this takes place we need to do much more work to protect the Fraser River watershed regarding the problems caused by industrial pollution and agricultural run-off, negative logging and mining impacts, growing water withdrawals, increasing water temperatures and on-going loss of habitat.
Fighting over what resource group takes more fish than the others is a waste of time, meanwhile each year the chinook numbers continue to decline. Bottom line - If we want more salmon in the Fraser, then we need to stop fighting each other and start getting serious about working together to help the river produce more salmon. My 2 bits.
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SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Exactly. Totally agree.
This something I will share that could impact the Fraser. As mentioned industrial projects can be bad news on salmon habitat. With dfo and environment canada powerless the BC government runs the show
The BC liberals under Christy Clark have done a horrible job. Here environment minister Mary Polak is unreal. Just look at the mess in Shawnigan Lake where an existing quarry filed for a contaminated waste permit and got it. The coho enhancement project had zero say in anything that happened there. That project is stopped now but what happened there sets a precidence for other project. The government is still haggling over what to do with this soil. The joke is a lot of it from the dredged bottom of Esquimalt. Right in Victoria backyard. It will have to go somewhere eventually.
In the last few weeks a very disturbing case was knocked down at supreme court appeals of Canada between the mine at shawnigan and CVRD. The ruling says that local municipalities do not have the authority over mines when it comes to any contaminated soil facility. Just so everyone is aware your BC liberal government flew under the radar and rewrote the rules while cvrd was battling them so they could win the court case.
So in this case now any quarry along the Fraser or throughout BC can apply for the permit. It also means that one that was stopped just above the Harrison hatchery can now reapply to start the evaluation process. It doesn't matter if municipality or first nations say no.
Habitat and the protection of water is key. If we can guarantee that for our fish then it is going to get a lot worse.
This something I will share that could impact the Fraser. As mentioned industrial projects can be bad news on salmon habitat. With dfo and environment canada powerless the BC government runs the show
The BC liberals under Christy Clark have done a horrible job. Here environment minister Mary Polak is unreal. Just look at the mess in Shawnigan Lake where an existing quarry filed for a contaminated waste permit and got it. The coho enhancement project had zero say in anything that happened there. That project is stopped now but what happened there sets a precidence for other project. The government is still haggling over what to do with this soil. The joke is a lot of it from the dredged bottom of Esquimalt. Right in Victoria backyard. It will have to go somewhere eventually.
In the last few weeks a very disturbing case was knocked down at supreme court appeals of Canada between the mine at shawnigan and CVRD. The ruling says that local municipalities do not have the authority over mines when it comes to any contaminated soil facility. Just so everyone is aware your BC liberal government flew under the radar and rewrote the rules while cvrd was battling them so they could win the court case.
So in this case now any quarry along the Fraser or throughout BC can apply for the permit. It also means that one that was stopped just above the Harrison hatchery can now reapply to start the evaluation process. It doesn't matter if municipality or first nations say no.
Habitat and the protection of water is key. If we can guarantee that for our fish then it is going to get a lot worse.
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tincan
Well-Known Member
haha, yup, lots of dialogue around this suggestion indeed. Increasing salmon is key but only if they survive (which many juveniles are not) and only if they don't out-compete other stocks of salmon (both other wild and hatchery stocks). Simply pumping out millions of fry into the Fraser will not necessarily solve our salmon problems... and many salmon scientists warn against the harmful effects of large-scale hatcheries... hence the debates on this subject.
IMO, the biggest current threat to Fraser salmon is the proposed port expansion that has been aided along by our BC Liberals for years. The whole massey tunnel replacement is just one piece of the puzzle (to allow larger vessels up south arm) but the proposed development would result in massive loss and degradation of habitat for what is still the most important salmon river in BC, the Fraser.
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