Winterzing Options ?

[Tin Bear]

I store a raw water boat, I/O on a trailer outside (to large for my garage)during the winter. I have been taking it to a shop to have the water drained from the block etc. once done that is the end of my season

In order to extend the season, I am looking for other options, block heater, portable heat source, etc

Anybody have an alternative that works for them?

Many Thanks,
Greg

[profisher]

How about flushing it with a environmentally friendly mix of anti-freeze and fresh water. Fill up a garbage can with the mix, let it circulate then shut it down.

[wolf]

All you have to do is stick a trouble light into your engine cover and use a low waatage light bulb and that will be more than fine as the heat from that is quite a bit in a confined area thats all I used to do. Isnt your block on the engine freshwater cooled anyways????most inboards are raw water cooled on the manifolds and risers only.

Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com

[Island Fish Lifter]

quote:Originally posted by wolf

All you have to do is stick a trouble light into your engine cover and use a low waatage light bulb and that will be more than fine as the heat from that is quite a bit in a confined area thats all I used to do. Isnt your block on the engine freshwater cooled anyways????most inboards are raw water cooled on the manifolds and risers only.
Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com

agreed


http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/daveeyx/nootkalasttrip015.jpg
Fill the dam tub!

[Charlie]

Just make sure you light bulb does not come into contact with anything, especially any fuel lines and your fiberglass - the light bulb will burn them!

[profisher]

Not sure I agree with any source of power/heat around a closed in space and possible fuel vapors....caboom is a possibility. Anti-freeze is safer and doesn't cost you on the hydro bill all winter.

[Brisco]

What about drys air ? Those chrystals that capture water ?

[spring time]

drys air does nothing for minus temperatures and freezing It's only for mildew

[wolf]

Well been doing the same thing for many years and seen it in many a boat really you shoudnt have any fumes if all fittings are tight and all things are done right if it aint then no matter what you do your asking for trouble no matter if its a boat or anything else. putting in a light is the most siple and efffective way really dont know of any other way short of a heater ooooh but then theres electricity again.


wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com

[spring time]

what happens if you io guys install a block heater like in your trucks

[Island Fish Lifter]

that will work exept it draws a fair bit of power.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/daveeyx/nootkalasttrip015.jpg
Fill the dam tub!

[profisher]

Yep, shouldn't have any loose fitting or vapors..and thats why boats never ever blow up or catch fire. It may be the simplest but not the best..in fact its called complacency. It didn't blow up last year so I'll do it this year. I know of a million dollar fire on board an ocean liner...the cause..a light bulb!!

[Tailspin]

A 60 watt coated shop bulb in a trouble light really keeps the condensation and moisture build up down on the enginge etc. I won't depend on it in my neck of the woods to prevent freezing though.

Striper Jack has a nice little heater with a antifreeze mode built in, sits under the pan.

www.tailspincharters.com

[Battle Bay]

Ya sounds like a good idea put a light bulb in your bilge, that will help your boat burn down like the rest that do in the winter. When the insurance guy comes by and finds out what how you were heating your bilge you will be SOL

[wolf]

Well I have never heard of a boat burnt because of this method but hey ANYTHING could happen( I could also be hit by lighting but I still walk in the rain)!!!!!!!!
This is what I have done I have a litte light base mounted on a piece of wood surrounded by a mjb coffee tin and a tiny metal screen on the top of it and it would sit perfectlly in the front of the engine so nothing could fall into (as anything would anyways)Also have another one that I would stick in the cabin part to do the same thing and it was my a way to see if the light was still on if it went out knew the bulb was gone.

When I had an inboard I did this for over ten years BECAUSE thats what a marine tech told me thats the easiest way to solve the problem besides heated garage, do whatever you like I really dont care this is what I have done in the past and [u]WILL </u> continue to do so in the future.

P.S. dont light your fireplace or turn on your lights in your house it may burn down!!!!!


Wolf

[salmonkiller01]

wolf, I agree that the bulb is the best way. When my boat was in the marina for a winter i used two 50watt bulbs(one on each side of the motor). Used bulbs for over ten winters.

[Tailspin]

Great input Battle Boy ! Thank you so much for your contribution to us brainless F@#@s :D

www.tailspincharters.com

[Sea Ranger]

quote:Ya sounds like a good idea put a light bulb in your bilge, that will help your boat burn down like the rest that do in the winter.

quote:Well I have never heard of a boat burnt because of this method but hey ANYTHING could happen( I could also be hit by lighting but I still walk in the rain)!!!!!!!!
I have many years in fire restoration and clean up and have seen many fires. Thanks for your input Battle Bay, the ounce of prevention rule comes to mind and one can never be too careful but its not as straight forward as Wolf makes it sound. Wolf has many years experiance dealing with keeping engines from freezing and to him it comes as second nature but to someone who has never done it there are many mistakes that can be made.
Extention cords have to be of the right length and grade and for outdoor use. Connections should be kept dry. Be sure not to pinch the cord as this is one reason for why fires start.


quote:This is what I have done I have a litte light base mounted on a piece of wood surrounded by a mjb coffee tin and a tiny metal screen on the top of it and it would sit perfectlly in the front of the engine so nothing could fall into (as anything would anyways)Also have another one that I would stick in the cabin part to do the same thing and it was my a way to see if the light was still on if it went out knew the bulb was gone.
Wolf....Great detail on how to build a small light bulb heater.... that kind of info is priceless and should be shared..... thanks.
I think one of the biggest problems with this could be if the power goes out for any length of time or if the cord gets kicked by accident and the power goes out and things can freeze up pretty quick so its good to be able to see the light like Wolf mentioned.


And remember....Keep your tip up!!! http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/fishinfool7/fish.gif

[Sea Ranger]

Don't forget heat rises, so anything below the light bulb is not going to stay warm.

And remember....Keep your tip up!!! http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/fishinfool7/fish.gif

[Tin Bear]

Thanks Guys, lots of great ideas, advice and safety concerns?

Variations of the light bulb and heater will extend my season

The antifreeze/water mixture garbage can solution would take care of November to sometime in March when I don't usually use the boat. A few more details on the process would be great, how much antifreeze? how long do you run it?...

I winterize the plumbing on my RV according to the manufacturers instructions which is to draw the antifreeze out of the jug and pump it through the system. Works Great, simple, never a problem

How about connecting my flusher to a hose and draw the mixture out of a a large container(garbage can...)shut it down when the mixture is gone

Your Thoughts?

Thanks Again,
Greg

[wolf]

I have to ask again is your engine not freshwater cooled???

As for manifolds if you have a 350 the manifolds should have some brass plugs on the bottom side of the manifolds that you can take out. And the water you used to flush the engine will drain out if they are not brass [u]DO NOT </u> try and free them as you may crack the manifold at that joint if they are brass then warm up the engine give it time to heat up.

Then with the motor off try and tighen it a bit slowly THEN loosen if it doesnt budge forget it its not worth it as manifolds are made out of cast steel and as they get older they get brittle so be very carefull when doing this!!!
I used to have brass plugs on the risers and manifolds and every year I would open them all up and flush out all the crud that builds up and then regreased the plugs again with a good marine grease and was good to go for next year.

Good luck Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com

[profisher]

Wolf, how is a house like a boat? I don't keep gasoline in the house. Why do they add the rotten egg smell to natural gas? So you can detect it before it builds up enough that a spark would ignite it!!! Your not in your boat everyday in the winter to detect vapors if a leak starts. If the boat was diesel powered, fill your boots use a bulb in the engine compartment.... use a bulb to keep the cabin dry...I just wouldn't use it in a small GASOLINE engine compartment left unattended for weeks at a time.

[profisher]

Tin, I would just pre-mix it to the manufactures recommended mix for our winter temps. You really only have to worry about freezing around here from November until the end of February. Just let the engine run until it comes up to operating temp and shut it down. The mix will be throughout the engine cooling system. (that part fed by the leg pump)

[wolf]

Whatever!!!

[Tin Bear]

quote:I have to ask again is your engine not freshwater cooled???

Wolf, raw water only, no fresh water cooling. Their are two brass plugs on the manifolds, starboard & one brass plug, port

Thanks,
Greg

[wolf]

WOW is that ever old school you may want down the road look at picking up a used freshwater system. you may be able to pick one up farly cheap what size engine,year, make of leg etc send it to me pm ??? well the brass plugs will drain the manifolds but you have more of an issue being raw water cooled sorry I dont kow how to drain the whole engine other than pulling off the lowest possable hose on the engine???

Ill ask my buddy on friday for you when we watch the canucks over a bevie if he knows of a used system so if you can send me that info as he works for a marine shop here in vic.

thanks Wolf

[Tin Bear]

quote:Tin, I would just pre-mix it to the manufactures recommended mix for our winter temps. You really only have to worry about freezing around here from November until the end of February. Just let the engine run until it comes up to operating temp and shut it down. The mix will be throughout the engine cooling system. (that part fed by the leg pump)

Profisher, this sounds like a simple safe solution for the winter months I have no intention of using the boat.

Great, so here's my plan, mix up enough antifreeze and water to get the level above the intake(s) on the leg, test the mixture with a anitifreeze tester to make sure it is above say -20 degrees C(should be more than enough for the Fraser Valley)run the engine and shut it down.

Is the plan good to good to go?

Again, Thanks guys for all the great suggestions

Cheers,
Greg

[profisher]

So long as you let the water circulate until the engine comes up to temp the mix should be throughout the engine and won't freeze. If the non-toxic anti-freeze is compatible with the engine use it over the automotive stuff so you don't kill any of the neighbors cats from drippings. RV shops have the non-toxic stuff you can add to holding tanks etc.

[Tin Bear]

Procedure Sounds Good

I checked the stuff I use for the RV plumbing...It is non toxic but has a warning it is for plastic pipes only and not for use as antifreeze in an internal combustion engine.

Will investigate other products and post when I find one

Thanks,
Greg

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by Tin Bear

Procedure Sounds Good

I checked the stuff I use for the RV plumbing...It is non toxic but has a warning it is for plastic pipes only and not for use as antifreeze in an internal combustion engine.

Will investigate other products and post when I find one

Thanks,
Greg

It’s been awhile since I dealt with a raw water system! Let’s see if I can remember?

You have to drain the whole circuit! You will need to open all of the engine and manifold water jacket drains, if possible. Take Wolf's advice there... tighten just a little, before removing. Also, if they don't come out... don't force them! Allow the water to drain completely. The whole system must be drained or protected to prevent freezing, but air exposure promotes corrosion, so after you are done, reinstall everyting and reconnect all your hoses.

You need to disconnect the hose on the intake seacock and also disconnect the water discharge hose from the exhaust manifold and/or riser. Run fresh water into the discharge hose to rinse out the salt. Insert a funnel into the disconnected discharge hose and pour a 50-50 mix of propylene glycol antifreeze into the funnel until the hose will not accept anymore. Allow the mixture to remain inside the block for several minutes, [u]then</u> open all your raw-water drain plugs and drain the engine.

Antifreeze swells some rubbers, so you can pull, rinse, put a small amount of grease, and reinstall the impeller as a precaution. Make sure you leave your drive down, so it drains. While you are at it “Fog” it so you won’t need a valve job next spring!

BTW… I used a light bulb for years without any problems, just make sure you secure it, so it doesn't touch anything. There is also nothing wrong with covering your engine with an electric blanket, then cover the blanket with a sleeping bag! That works really well! :D

Oh forgot, take Wolf's advice again and get a freshwater system. Well worth the investment!

[wolf]

So Was wondering after thinking about this for a bit is there anyway you could do a mixture of anti freeze and water and keep it in the engine???maybe leave the leg in a garbage can and cut the lid to fit so no animal could get into it, then the antifreeze would be there inside protecting it??? just a thought if you dont want to do the light bulb thing.

I know for a fact the garage I go to cant give that old mixture away as they have to pay to get rid of it and im sure you could get 10 gallons of it with ease maybe a thought???

Good luck Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com

[Big Zeke]

Why not? If the goal is out-of water storage I'd think it should be easy. If you can run the engine in a garbage can of water you can run it in a garbage can of antifreeze. Given the shape of the leg I'd think something like a big Roughtote could fit the bill as long as the engine intakes are covered. I know most garages have to pay to get rid of old glycol but you'd want to make sure of the strength and filter out any nasty crap. For the couple of gallons it will take, just go to any auto parts store and mix up a batch of 50/50. Whatever you don't use this year can be stored until next.

I'd avoid putting RV antifreeze in the engine, the cheaper RV stuff is a mix of alchohol and water, in an open system the alcohol can evaporate leaving just water behind. The more expensive stuff (propylene glycol) is nearly the same price as cheap auto antifreeze. I once dumped a couple of gallons on cheap RV stuff in the bilge of a boat in storage only to find it frozen solid a few months later (busted the bilge pump in the process).

My first choice would be to get a liquid into the engine that doesn't freeze - it stops corrosion in the open water galleries; second choice is to drain the block completely and let it freeze (corrosion rates are much lower below zero); last choice is to leave water in the block and try to stop it from freezing (with a light or heater). This last choice might work on the coast when a cold day is -5 or -10 but out here there is no heater in the world that can keep the block from freezing. Electric heaters can always develop shorts, in this case the breaker trips and the block freezes, in the worst case you go boat shopping in the spring.

Just my $0.02
Zeke

[profisher]

By the way this was just a brain storm idea, have never done it myself as I have O/B power. To me just a common sense solution to your problem Tin. Charlies way may be how it would normally be done, but it sounds like a lot of work with some risk of breaking plugs. Wolfs way would be the easiest..still think my idea is close to being as simple but safer from a standpoint of vapors and like was said by someone else from not generating enough heat for your location and also a tripped breaker will stop the protection of a heater.

[Tin Bear]

The great thing about your replies is not only will I be able to extend the season with temporary heat from light bulbs etc I will be able to protect the engine in the hard of winter by running an antifreeze mixture into the engine using its own pump instead of the ugly or expensive task of draining the block.

In addition I will fog the carb, add fuel stabilizer and change the oil!

Hopefully this thread will also be of help to other members to make winterizing easier, save money or both!

Have we missed anything in winterizing the engine/leg?

Thanks again for sharing your tips and experience,
Greg

[Big Zeke]

Make sure you change the oil in the leg before you go into storage. Water left in the leg oil will etch the bearing surfaces over the winter and you'll develop leaks etc in the leg. If you have a remote reservoir (like in some I/Os)make sure the reservoir is clean and full and the line from there to the leg isn't plugged...a plugged bit of tubing can negate the reservoir.

A local engine rebuilder made a great suggestion when de-mothballing in the spring. Pull all spark plugs, spray some fogging oil in the cylinders and crank the engine using the starter for a few minutes (1-2 mins after you build up good oil pressure). Dry starts are death for a 4 stroke so this is a good way to lubricate the journals prior to getting any load on them. His experience is that bad mothballing/demothballing is a very common cause of early failure and probably more common than poor maintenance. Lots of his clients are running 4 strokes with thousands (yes thousands) of hours on them without a hitch.

Zeke

[profisher]

When we put my fathers 65 Mustang back on the road after sitting stored for 14 years we did the following to pre-lube the engine before firing it up. Removed the distributor and used the appropriate sized socket attached to a speed wrench to turn the oil pump by hand. The oil pressure gauge got up to 50psi while I gave-er on the wrench. All done without cranking the engine while dry at all. This was the last step in a few just prior to firing it up.

[Tin Bear]

Great Point!

My 7.5 HP Merc sat in the garage for three years without being run, pulled the plugs, put a few squirts of oil in each cylinder, re-installed the plugs and fired it up & yes without even moving it tipped it up, slipped a garbage can underneath, filled it up with water and fired it up. Just a couple of minutes later it was running like a charm.

Similarily a buddy of mine had a 20HP stored in Ontario for 15 years, shipped it out here, did the same thing, ran like clockwork ever since

Cold starts are hard on engines, this simple procedure will definatley add to the life of your engine!

Cheers,
Greg

[quicksilver11]

When storing outboards make sure you run the carbs dry of fuel so the jets don`t plug up, float gets sticky when the fuel goes bad (if stored to long). Use fogging oil to protect the internal engine parts and you shouldn`t have any problem in the new year.

[Tin Bear]

Excellent Advice!

I usually run the fuel out of small outboards each time I use it not knowing when I will use it again.

My father has always done this and has outboards that are 30 years old and still running good!

All the Best,
Greg

[profisher]

I had to resurrect this thread in light of what happened recently up Island. I think it was 3 or 4 boats totally destroyed and 6 or 7 more damaged from a fire caused by fumes in the bilge and a source of ignition. So if you are heating your I/O or inboard with a bulb and are moored anywhere near me...please let me know so I can move to a far away:D berth!!

[Tin Bear]

Good Point, I saw this as well.
No worries about moorage, my boat is on a trailer in front of my house, all the more reason to find a safer solution...!
There is a good winterizing video on West Marine,s website, simple step
by step instructions including an easy solution to run antifreeze into the engine.

I am going to try it out and post the results

[wolf]

Dont cross the road as well as you may get hit by a car........this is almost as bad as the H1N1 outbrake !!!!!! did you know more people drown from a bathtub then this flu virus but nobody is screaming for a ban on having a bath!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do what you want but those boats blew up from an "ACCIDENT" there was no mention of a electrical mishad simply put as accidental.

Wolf

[profisher]

To get a Kaboom you need 4 things, fuel, oxygen, a confined poorly ventilated space and a source of ignition. All inboard boats have fuel and oxygen and a poorly ventilated space in the bilge..some apparently add ignition! :D

[profisher]

I cross the road frequently, but look for cars before doing so and use a light bulb (in well ventilated open spaces) to light my way after dark!!:D

[profisher]

Wolf..maybe you should read the story a little further. Build up of fuel vapors and a suspected ignition sourced likely the cause!
http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=79b3122e-7f23-4917-915d-4a406f4de6cf

[Tailspin]

Was it not likley a diesel on a 40 footer?

www.tailspincharters.com

[cliffjumper]

Just another minor note not yet mentioned is the "new" enviro-fuels with alcohol mixed with the gas.

The stuff is corrosive to engines & fuel systems. Gas stabilizers keep it from going to varnish over the winter, but you need to also add the ethelene (?) alcohol/gas stabilizer to keep the gas from corroding and gelling. Crappie Tire sells it.

Use both in lawnmowers, chainsaws etc... & their gas cans too.

Cheers!

[wolf]

FUEL vapours could mean a lot of things from a leaky propane bottle to a jerry can or even some source of chemical that was leaking who knows???? and the point is they dont know where the ignition came from!!!!!!!
quote:"What actually caused the ignition itself will never be known," said Nanaimo fire captain Doug Bell on Tuesday. "It could be anything."

It was ruled "ACCIDENTAL" not from a specific source. plain and simple I dont even know why you want to continue to argee or debate this???????
Even you have seen a boat at your marina go up and I think the cause was a faulty bilge pump but hey I still have 2 of them on my boat and im sure you have them on yours!!!!!

Wolf

[Time]

Back to winterizing - outboards this time.
On one American website I read occasionally they are talking about using 'blue' sta-bil, as opposed to the usual red sta-bil.
This is because of the amount of ethanol in the gas down there.
Any concerns here?

[profisher]

Bilge pumps are ignition protected wolf...because they are left in standby mode to pump while the boat is unattended. All other ignition sources should be off by way of the main switch...that is why you have one. You defeat its purpose by your method. How many will have a problem by doing this?...who knows 1 in a 100 maybe...ok if your 1 of the 99.

[wolf]

quote:You defeat its purpose by your method

What is that?? I was asking you about that guys boat a real nice one owned by quigly?? I think and I heard it caught fire and the bilge was the confirmed problem I was just asking.

Also wondering how when a light bulb burns out how its going to spark when its inside of a sealed glass chamber???

Thanks wolf

[profisher]

Ever wonder why the latest trouble lights that mechanics use are all going fluorescent? MMMM....a hot incandescent bulb that gets a drip of cold water or fuel dropping onto it....shatters glass..spark..kaboom. I'm sure bilge pumps that are ignition protected can fail and cause a spark too...you can't foresee that. Not quite the same scenario as knowingly using a less than ideal method of heating the doghouse. A safer method would be a small heater/fan located outside the boat and connected by hose to the doghouse.

[Battle Bay]

This is funny people are still all over putting this light bulb in the bilge to keep the engine from freezing. The one thing that none of you are looking at is that when you need the light bulb to keep the enging from freezing we have these nice witer storms that take out our power. No power no heat from the light bulb engine freezes.